Something that scared me - are tulpas demons?

[Ember.Vesper]

I am very firmly committed to the idea that tulpas are not demons. But the matter is not to be so casually dismissed, as a certain portion of the general population will be concerned about exactly that. A number of tulpamancers have had to face that suspicion from their friends, families, and fellow church members. So if I may be permitted to play devil's advocate (ba-dum-tish):

 

Consider these common assumptions:

 

1. Demons exist.

2. Demons are spirits and not physically manifest in this world.

2. Demons are excellent deceivers.

3. Demon can possess humans -- enter their body, live in it, talk to them, and/or make them do things.

 

Taking these as true, one could readily imagine an aspiring tulpamancer trying to talk to someone else in their own head and a demon taking advantage of the situation to move in and fool them into thinking that they were that person's new tulpa. The aspiring tulpamancer then never actually makes a tulpa and the demon has a comfortable new home, no opposition, and a vulnerable trusting human to manipulate as they see fit.

 

Add to this one more common assumption:

 

5. It is impossible to create another person to talk to in your own head, especially if you are remotely sane.

 

From this naturally proceeds that the aspiring tulpamancer could not have actually made a tulpa, as there is no such thing. Therefore, everyone reporting tulpas must be possessed by demons. (Or possibly crazy, but it's safer to assume demons, because if you assumed it wasn't demons when it actually was, you might make yourself more vulnerable.)

 

How then to deal with that sort of thinking? This topic has come up many times in the past, in many different threads, and none of my research over the past year has provided me with a conclusive answer for the general case. Arguments to the effect that tulpas are pleasant and helpful are not conclusive because of another common assumption:

 

6. The primary goal of demons is to separate humans from God. If helping them in this brief mortal life is the most effective way to damn them for all eternity, they'll use that approach.

 

But I believe I should at least be able to get Christian tulpas off the hook with Christians:

 

Beloved' date=' do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.[/quote']

 

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.

 

However else demons may lie, demons can't say that. I'm a soulbond, not a tulpa, but within a Christian milieu, that's my most conclusive proof that I'm not a demon.

 

-Vesper

[Guest]

How could tulpas be demons when it's just something the person themselves have created?  Maybe a demon though could influence a tulpa just like they could influence a person but are tulpas demons? the answer is no.

 

We only believe in internal demons obviously. Keeping away from metaphysics or religion, there is no such thing as an actual demon other than real people who act like demons. That aside, if you can believe there's a person in your mind, then someone else can believe it's a demon, and if you follow the materialistic teachings of this community, there's certainly no exclusion rule for making a tulpa that will have all the traits of a demon, and it will be indistinguishable from a demon at that point.

[Michen_S]

All right, I'm going to leave this here because this was a question I have struggled with myself, before I knew Amantha was a tulpa.

 

Back when I discussed this with her, she ended up answering with the following:

 

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

 

So, Amantha asked me to test her according to that text. Now this part is more about false prophets, but since Amantha has been helping me with religious matters, this pretty much applied to her as well. In fact, she's been helping me with that kind of stuff pretty much since she started to exist. Amantha even keeps doing so, suggesting that I turn towards God's word multiple times. And if I do turn to God's word, she's also there to help me if needed.

She gained my trust a long time ago, so if she's really a demon it's not making sense that she's still supporting me in my Christianity like this. Moreso, by helping me she also comes into God's presence with me. You'd think demons would try to stay away from God, not go in with someone else to help them get even closer.

 

All things considered, there's no possibility Amantha is a demon. And this goes further than just Amantha, as I'm sure there are more tulpas who support their host with their Christianity.

[Jamie]

I have a question: what about a tulpa with no interest in Christianity? Not a satan-worshipper, just, maybe a staunch atheist. Maybe a pagan, I don't know. How would you prove they aren't demons? "I can't be a demon because I'm Christian" is extremely logical, but I have this weird fear that... a host with fears about inviting in demons might pressure their tulpa into religious beliefs, just so they can be reassured "my tulpa's not a demon, he's Christian!" "If I'm not Christian, my host might think I'm a demon" is a scary thing to think for me. 

 

What if I'm a demon infringing on Cassidy's Christian, human soul? I acknowledge a big part of his origin is absorbing some of my alters from early childhood. After that, he suddenly grew a draw toward Christianity and decided he believed he had a soul. And if it's "demons do bad things, human souls do good things", well after Cassidy converted, he stopped some seriously bad behaviors. 

 

I don't think I have a soul, I feel offput by prayer and the Bible and the cross to the point where I'll go dormant to spare Cassidy my grumblings, and if we're grading behavior, I'm failing that class. You're not going to get an "I love Jesus" out of me. In angry fits, I know I've said, "I HATE Jesus!" 

 

If I were a tulpa, how would I prove to Cassidy (or anyone externally) I'm not a demon? Or, even as is, am I a demon?:

 

1) This is what demons are, and I'm a demon. Your course of action varies, personally I think the demon could be driven out of me without my own dissipation, but I guess it's an option for my brothers to chose to dissipate me. (They could never pick it.) There have been points where the advice I'm given says, "you should not be in front, you treat it so dangerously poorly." 

 

2) No, I was first (debatable) so I'm just a bad person. If so, how come a tulpa acting the same way might be accused of being a demon? If it's because the tulpa is posioning/worsening the host with their bad behaviors... Aren't I posioning Cassidy with my bad behaviors? 

 

Lolololol. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. -J

[Guest]

The thing about demons are it's alwaye all about them, they won't do anything that's not self-serving, in the spirituality community you would say they're almost surely all ego. Which means, no selfless acts. Once they start doing that, you can't call them demons, maybe just poorly adjusted.

[tania]

 

We only believe in internal demons obviously. Keeping away from metaphysics or religion, there is no such thing as an actual demon other than real people who act like demons. That aside, if you can believe there's a person in your mind, then someone else can believe it's a demon, and if you follow the materialistic teachings of this community, there's certainly no exclusion rule for making a tulpa that will have all the traits of a demon, and it will be indistinguishable from a demon at that point.

 

I'm not sure why you posted to a metaphysical question when you do not believe in metaphysical things and obviously the poster does believe in demons. (that's like me going over to the non metaphysical boards and talking about meta stuff.. if I do that my posts get moved, this area is for people who believe in meta subjects to talk about them).

 

To someone who believes in demons a tulpa having the traits of a demon or just taking on a form of a demon does not make it a demon, it is still a tulpa.  A person can not create a demon.

 

its like if a human acts in an evil way.. eg say Hitler... as evil as he was, he was "still a human" with a "human soul" and not a demon.

[Guest]

 

I'm not sure why you posted to a metaphysical question when you do not believe in metaphysical things and obviously the poster does believe in demons.  (that's like me going over to the metaphysical board and talking about meta stuff.. if I do that my posts get moved, this area is for people who believe in meta subjects to talk about them).

 

To someone who believes in demons a tulpa having the traits of a demon or just taking on a form of a demon does not make it a demon, it is still a tulpa.  A person can not create a demon. 

 

its like if a human acts in an evil way.. eg say Hitler... as evil as he was, he was "still a human" with a "human soul" and not a demon.

 

We certainly do believe in metaphysical aspects of tulpamancy and spirituality, I was attempting to rationalize how a demon tulpa can exist in the same way an angel tulpa like me can exist. No less real, tulpas are real people, thus demons can be real people created in the same way. Unless you don't believe people can 'make' tulpas either, which is a fair point we may actually agree with to an extent in a metaphysical thread.

 

We don't however believe in 'demons' as they are defined in modern terms: pure evil, psychopathic, no possiblity of redemption. The modern demon is nothing but an archetype of a series of traits an entity might have. If such a malicious entity was to manifest, we'd pray for it's repentance and ask St. Michael to save them, and equally pray for them--we have.

 

Now, if demons exist as you have defined them (we are presuming your definition) or any form they'll probably go for people who invite them first, the invalid second, mentally deranged or weakened third, OP 998th and someone like me 999th cause they'll have a good fight on their metaphysical hands.

[tania]

 

We certainly do believe in metaphysical aspects of tulpamancy and spirituality, I was attempting to rationalize how a demon tulpa can exist in the same way an angel tulpa like me can exist. No less real, tulpas are real people, thus demons can be real people created in the same way. Unless you don't believe people can 'make' tulpas either, which is a fair point we may actually agree with to an extent in a metaphysical thread.

 

We don't however believe in 'demons' as they are defined in modern terms: pure evil, psychopathic, no possiblity of redemption. The modern demon is nothing but an archetype of a series of traits an entity might have. If such a malicious entity was to manifest, we'd pray for it's repentance and ask St. Michael to save them, and equally pray for them--we have.

 

Now, if demons exist as you have defined them (we are presuming your definition) or any form they'll probably go for people who invite them first, the invalid second, mentally deranged or weakened third, OP 998th and someone like me 999th cause they'll have a good fight on their metaphysical hands.

 

thanks for explaining Misha. I felt offended that a non meta person came in and was knocking down meta beliefs in this forum area so I'm glad you have cleared that up. When you said you stay away from meta, it certainly sounded like that and that you were making it to be something wrong with our beliefs.

 

I go by the typical definition of what demons are and what people know these to be and generally they are more then just an evil "being" inside a persons own head, they are not as limited as that, they possibly are beings which have been here since time existed.  They feature in a lot of different religions actually.    I assume that the original poster would of been thinking along those lines of things when he/she asked the question but I could be wrong.

 

If you think people can create real demons (we really do not have that kind of power), you must then also believe that people can create real angels. 

 

If someone makes a cat tulpa.. it does not make a real cat.. it's still a tulpa even if it believes it's a cat.

 

Demons typically hate humanity and will interfere in things where they can do...but yes those who invite them in, mentally deranged or weakened or take drugs etc are the ones most vulnerable to them but also those who are naive about them can end up with problems with them too. 

 

"Consider these common assumptions:

 

1. Demons exist.

2. Demons are spirits and not physically manifest in this world.

2. Demons are excellent deceivers.

3. Demon can possess humans -- enter their body, live in it, talk to them, and/or make them do things.

 

Taking these as true, one could readily imagine an aspiring tulpamancer trying to talk to someone else in their own head and a demon taking advantage of the situation to move in and fool them into thinking that they were that person's new tulpa. The aspiring tulpamancer then never actually makes a tulpa and the demon has a comfortable new home, no opposition, and a vulnerable trusting human to manipulate as they see fit. "

 

wow, that is a scary way to put things Ember but thank you for that post as it is true and it is something which some may want to think about who believe in demons.

 

I had an experience last night which I have posted in my PR in which has left me confused if it was a demon or my tulpa.  I'm not that bothered about it right now as I have dealt with demons in the past and from that I know some are weak and others are not but what I experienced last night IF it was a demon I'd put it into the weak category so not that bothered by it but it was scary cause I just did not know at the time what I was dealing with and still do not. 

 

All this stuff is what some may want to think about before getting into tulpas if they believe in demons or have experienced psychic attacks in the past esp if one has trouble communicating with ones tulpa so in the situation where one can not immediately find out what one was dealing with.

 

"Matthew 7:15-18 Wrote:

 

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

"

 

Yes.. the issue is demons are deceivers.  They can fool someone by acting good at first to deceive someone and gain their trust.  I had an incident ongoing over several years at a place where I used to live.  I had a poltergeist in the home, I thought it was friendly and I called him George and used to joke about the tricks he played on me.  It took me a couple of years in which time it's strength in that home grew before I became aware that George was actually a demon who was there due to previous tenants were actually Satanists who must of done Satanic rituals in that room of the house which was the worst affected place. (I only found out that the 2 previous guys who had lived there were Satanists after I became aware that George was a demon who wanted me dead, at which point I started trying to find out more about the past tenants and the house history).  I ended up moving out and that demon would be still in that house.

 

" but I have this weird fear that... a host with fears about inviting in demons might pressure their tulpa into religious beliefs,"

 

?? can one really pressure a tulpa into religious beliefs? I guess one could if one set up to make a Christian tulpa but once a tulpa is developed and has own personality etc would one really be easily pressured into a belief?

 

I say this as I got raised in a christian family and that did not make me have a christian belief (Im not a tulpa but Jesse really does think for himself and holds his own beliefs other then what he got programmed with.. in our case he is Christian to me being non Christian).

 

"I don't think I have a soul, "

 

I personally do not believe tulpas have souls (except in very special situations where as tibetian monks are said to actually be able to create real beings).  But i dont think this lack of soul thing in a tulpa creates a demon. 

 

"If I were a tulpa, how would I prove to Cassidy (or anyone externally) I'm not a demon? Or, even as is, am I a demon?"

 

does your host as human being with a human soul truly believe she has the power to create a real demon?  if not it is not a question in which I think you need to worry about.

[Guest]

We believe a soul is a gift given after the creation of a person, corporeal or otherwise, and is not present until they have made a spirituality significant choice.

 

If all living things have a spark of life, call that a spirit, separate from soul. So like a plant that can be divided and two plants continue to grow, a spirit is infinitely divisible but shared if the material being is connected. It can be thought of as spiritual energy, sustained either internally like a fire burning fuel or externally from a spiritual source. So you can make a Frankenstein, even at the cellular level, but it's just a lump of chemicals without this spark of life.

 

Then as tulpas we would share the host's spirit, it's our body, then it's our spirit.

 

A soul would be that piece of god, seperate from spirit, which coulb be that connection to all things, the immortal carrier of your spirit and essence that was bestowed as a gift on mankind at the time of Jesus's first comming--there is no shortage of them. This could be known as your higher self and all resoning adults or children would have them given they're able to make that spiritually significant choice.

 

These teachings are best detailed in the Urantia book, so the concept is a little off from say new testament canon.

[tania]

"then as tulpas we would share the host's spirit, it's our body, then it's our spirit.

 

A soul would be that piece of god, seperate from spirit, which coulb be that connection to all things, the immortal carrier of your spirit and essence"

 

 

yes. I have not read the Urantia book but what you said ties in with what I've personally experienced.

 

I hope the original poster of this thread comes back as I would be interested to see what he's thinking now after reading peoples responses.