Black Bane

do tulpae have a separate conscious?

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I define consciousness as a state that you acquire after a certain amount of brain development. When you have a brain that is developed enough to make you "know that you know", you have consciousness. If a tulpa knows that it knows that it is a tulpa, I can assume it has consciousness. But does the tulpa actually have its own point of view? I don't think we can answer that. A schizophrenic person also experiences vivid hallucinations that are apparently sentient and autonomous, but does that mean that he is creating entire consciousnesses everytime he hallucinates?

We must mean different things by consciousness then. All experiences, be they regular sensory experiences or hallucinations are experiences by definition, thus there is a person that is conscious of them. If someone's life were a dream (not that it would be possible without some regular experiences first - if there's no memories, what could one imagine?), it wouldn't make them less conscious. Self-consciousness is a different concept as well, it mostly means being aware/conscious of one's own existence.

 

Since you are from the Strong AI school, do you believe that, to attain perfect artificial intelligence, we need to program and create a code so infinitely large and complex that it can evaluate all possible conditions there might exist? Or do we need to redefine the way we create artificial intelligence?

No, because perfect knowledge is impossible. What you want is to create an agent which can function in and adapt to complex environments to achieve complex goals, or to be generally intelligent, like we are. Using narrow AI to accomplish specific tasks will work for a while, will never be a replacement for a truly generic intelligence like our own. I'm not saying we should go full neuromorphic (like ourselves), even if we can, because creating beings too close to us would probably mean less utility in the long run, but we should try to achieve some middle ground.

 

But when your tulpa has just been created, it can't have its own memories, unless you implanted them on it, which would make you also have those memories. After that, it can create their own novel things the way you said, interpolating between sensory experiences, memories and knowledge that it acquires through now and memories that were already in your subconscious, and you will not know about them yes. However it is probable that those things that the tulpa creates also get "sent" to your subconscious and remain there, just like a long forgotten memory.

Yes, it wouldn't have any memories, unless you gave them such memories, any more than you would have memories as a baby, although that's not a perfect analogy because babies have to learn far more than a tulpa has to (a tulpa can reuse a great deal of our knowledge).

A memory is our own if we identify as having experienced it. Just because it's somewhere in our brain does not make it our own. If a tulpa dreams something and identifies with that dream, it becomes their memory, and not your own. If you could examine it, you would not identify with it, any more than your tulpa identifies with your memories. The thing here is to differentiate between subjective histories associated with a personality and the entire range of possible experiences that can be associated with your brain, even if not identified as being your own experiences. In the case of a tulpa, that range of experiences might grow quite a bit, to the point where you have 2 separate subjective histories with their own memories, even if one such history may very well be just made of other interpolated memories and imagined scenarios.

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WARNING OPINIONS INBOUND:

Your thought's.

Are they really "alive", so to speak?

Do the have souls?

 

From what I've gathered, yes tulpas are separate consciousnesses, just at your sub conscious is separate. The tulpa is capable of advanced thought processes, free will (effectively) and morality.

Are they alive? Well, yes and no. Yes because they are active, animate thinking beings. No because they do not have full independent biological functions, metabolism, reproductive system, digestive tract, cardiovascular etc.

Spoiler alert: Souls don't exist.

But if you mean the more humanistic definition of metaphysical human connection, than absolutely. Infact I couldn't think of a better example.


"Your parents will never be magic talking horses"

-Anonymous

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>Ask if tulpae are a separate conscious

>Get into existential debate

 

Come on guys. Don't over do it. Let me put it this way, look at the subconscious as a base, with your conscious mind and the tulpa's conscious mind stemming off of it. That's the way I see it, anyways.


Orange juice helps with concentration headaches.

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WARNING OPINIONS INBOUND:

 

From what I've gathered, yes tulpas are separate consciousnesses, just at your sub conscious is separate. The tulpa is capable of advanced thought processes, free will (effectively) and morality.

Are they alive? Well, yes and no. Yes because they are active, animate thinking beings. No because they do not have full independent biological functions, metabolism, reproductive system, digestive tract, cardiovascular etc.

Spoiler alert: Souls don't exist.

But if you mean the more humanistic definition of metaphysical human connection, than absolutely. Infact I couldn't think of a better example.

 

If you define soul as that which ties your observer moments together, then that may very well be said to exist - along with your own experiences and senses. Most people think of souls as these weird floaty things which are somehow disconnected from one's brain patterns, which is obvious non-sense, but if you look at it from an information-theoretical point of view for dealing with qualia, "souls" could be said to exist as high-level patterns in the brain or possibly other substrates too.


>Ask if tulpae are a separate conscious

>Get into existential debate

 

Come on guys. Don't over do it. Let me put it this way, look at the subconscious as a base, with your conscious mind and the tulpa's conscious mind stemming off of it. That's the way I see it, anyways.

 

It's close to how I look at it. Some people have some problems with this view because they want to make their existence more special than that of a tulpa.

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You aren't your brain.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbLxFld65t3rh3JQ-8IPUhdTLuIlazhEpsqgtDtPWXn_ONbqp_g5Jj_eRZ

 

Anyway, a tulpa is conscious in the same way that a split personality is. Not saying that a tulpa is a split personality, and the memory part of it works a bit differently, but in an overall sense they are the same existential-wise. Whether you say that a split personality is conscious or not is up to you, I'm just stating the facts. My opinion on whether a tulpa is conscious or not will remain private, thank you.

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbLxFld65t3rh3JQ-8IPUhdTLuIlazhEpsqgtDtPWXn_ONbqp_g5Jj_eRZ

 

Anyway, a tulpa is conscious in the same way that a split personality is. Not saying that a tulpa is a split personality, and the memory part of it works a bit differently, but in an overall sense they are the same existential-wise. Whether you say that a split personality is conscious or not is up to you, I'm just stating the facts. My opinion on whether a tulpa is conscious or not will remain private, thank you.

 

If you're going to claim you're the brain, you're also going to have you're the biological body and that if that were replaced, such as your heart, you would no longer be yourself. Take that far enough and you'll just claim you're the entire universe or multiverse.

Personal identity is fuzzy, but I stop at my subjective experiences and memories, but others stop later or earlier. The fact remains that if just the connections/patterns that make up your tulpa were to magically disappear, you would still you, but if the reverse were to happen (such as that which makes your decision process), you would no longer be you, subjectively speaking, 'you' would cease to exist relative to others.

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ಠ_ಠ

 

You sure you want to do this? Get into a heated internet debate on existence itself? So that you all can sling around your own opinions and heavily defend your own?

 

Please no. Jegus Christ.


Orange juice helps with concentration headaches.

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My head hurts.


I must have ended up on the wrong planet. Everything here is so strange.

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ಠ_ಠ

 

You sure you want to do this? Get into a heated internet debate on existence itself? So that you all can sling around your own opinions and heavily defend your own?

 

Please no. Jegus Christ.

 

We haven't quite gotten there, but I do have a certain position on the nature of existence itself. Understanding that position would be sufficient to also understand my position on consciousness and tulpae, but maybe I should just stop, those kinds of discussions tend to reach thousands of post long threads on mailing lists and usenet groups most of the time. Just blame the thread starter for picking this heated topic.

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