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[survey] Tulpamancy Research Study and Thinking About Thinking

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1 hour ago, Ember.Vesper said:

This implies that any unusual responses are assumed by the current researcher to have a reasonable possibility of not being a sign of mental illness even if most other researchers using the same instruments would assume those responses to be suggestive of mental illness.

 

I don't really draw that conclusion at all, I think you were totally right with it having been made to screen for delusions/paranoia/hallucinations etc. and no more. Plenty of people go undiagnosed for those things, I think.

 

Buuut you yourself have confirmed my fear that people would mark imposition/intentionally-having-tulpas-active as sensing things that weren't there and such. I can't speak for the ones who made the survey, but that alone nullifies most of the usefulness of the survey in my eyes. I would never compare the experience of having a tulpa or the hard-worked-for imposition - which is an active skill we need to constantly be performing, not some crazed state of mind - to delusions or hallucinations.

 

If they did want to ask about those things, they'd need to specify a lot better. But it's not right to act like imposition relates at all to traditional hallucinating when it's a skill that takes prolonged effort and practice to accomplish, especially since unlike the results of extreme isolation/starvation/sleep deprivation it's not "an effect" that might be considered on purpose when it's actually out of your control, which is how I imagine it would be seen in the results of a study on it. 

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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I'm trying to see how this survey fits into Dr. Palmer-Cooper's broader research. This, a continuation of her doctoral thesis topic, seems to be the only relevant effort on her website:


https://emmapalmercooper.co.uk/research/metacognition-in-psychosis/

Quote

 

Metacognition means ‘thinking about thinking’ and refers to self-awareness of our own thoughts and other cognitive processes.


Research has shown that metacognition tends to be lower than average in individuals currently experiencing psychosis, and this is associated with recovery and general functioning. In clinical fields metacognition tends to refer to ‘insight’ into illness, but can refer more broadly to self-awareness and objective appraisal of task performance.


My research looks to develop a model of metacognition for individuals experiencing psychosis, that includes insight, but goes beyond clinical definitions. The aim is to better understand how metacognition is related to both developing and recovering from psychosis, and how this information can be used to develop interventions to support recovery.

 


Part of this research involves co-leading a working group in the International Consortium on Hallucination Research. So I suppose it isn't beyond the pale to consider that she might be open to the possibility of both our "unusual sensory experiences" and ASMR being products of psychosis and hallucination. She seems to appreciate our science-mindedness, though:


https://mobile.twitter.com/dr_emmaclaire/status/1220437127546265605

Quote

A very interesting group of individuals, who are fortunately very interested in understanding why they have their unusual experiences! Very grateful for their participation!

 

7 hours ago, Luminesce said:

I think you were totally right with it having been made to screen for delusions/paranoia/hallucinations etc. and no more.

 

Remember that none of the surveys were created or modified by Dr. Palmer-Cooper.

 

7 hours ago, Luminesce said:

Buuut you yourself have confirmed my fear that people would mark imposition/intentionally-having-tulpas-active as sensing things that weren't there and such.

 

I always go with what seems to be the most literal, basic, and straightforward responses to psych tests. That seems to me to be the path of greatest honesty, integrity, and chance of consistency. If you practice visual imposition, can you really deny "I have seen lights, flashes, or other shapes that other people could not see"?

 

My approach could still result in surprising and non-obvious results for imposition in a plural context though. For auditory imposition, consider, "I heard a person's voice and then found that no-one was there." Well, no, the headmate that imposed their voice is there.

 

Since we've still gotten nowhere with imposition working on it every day for sixteen months, the only MUSEQ response that has actually changed for me as a result of plurality was "I felt the presence of someone, even though I could not see them (e.g., behind me, or in another room)". The strongest response may be "At least monthly", but it's actually almost continually.

 

-Ember


I'm not having fun here anymore, so we've decided to take a bit of a break, starting February 27, 2020. - Ember

 

Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]

Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, World of Darkness, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017

Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Winter Court of Faerie, Dresdenverse, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

 

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit

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17 hours ago, Ember.Vesper said:

*Cat assuming "other people" meant tulpamancers while I assumed it meant the general public.


-Ember

 

I remember why I said that now. That section of the test was asking about how I feel about other people and if I trust their opinions about my experiences. I discounted the general public because I don't feel comfortable openly sharing my experiences with them because of social pressure, not because I don't want to hear what they think. I understand that most people will jump to "you're crazy" and not only the discussion won't develop from there, but they will ridicule me and that can risk me getting a job and having a normal life. I would get shunned before people get the chance to explain why they think tulpamancy isn't real or use counter arguments like "tulpas are an aspect of you, not separate people."

 

However, other tulpamancers don't do that, and I and Ranger have agreed and disagreed with other tulpamancers a lot. We had to talk to a bunch of people before we figured out switching, hence why we are more open to what other tulpamancers have to say. I would also include doctors and psychologists because I feel like they would be more respectful in presenting their counter arguments and they would not risk hurting my chances at having a successful life, even if they too ultimately believed I was crazy.


Pretty much my main wonderland form minus the cat parts, that's a separate form. I'm not a hippo, I promise.

I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

 

My other Tulpas have their own account now.

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23 hours ago, Ember.Vesper said:

If you practice visual imposition, can you really deny "I have seen lights, flashes, or other shapes that other people could not see"?


Yes, because unlike hallucinations from starvation/sleep deprivation/drugs or mental disorders, these are obviously not actually masquerading as visual stimuli and are only being treated as such. Completely intentional and requiring focus to keep up, not particularly vivid and certainly not fooling me into thinking I'm actually seeing them. But, I can treat them like they're real, at least.

 

This is completely different from even experiences of people "seeing their tulpa in real life" outside of direct imposition practice. Even that, I would count on the survey. But imposition, at least as we experience it, is not hallucination. It may have a similar end result, but they're not the same.

 

 

Anyways whatever that "other people" part of the survey you guys keep talking about, I remember feeling like it was very clear (unlike the senses stuff) what it meant, so I dunno

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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16 hours ago, Cat_ShadowGriffin said:

That section of the test was asking about how I feel about other people and if I trust their opinions about my experiences.

 

Sounds like BCIS #11: "I cannot trust other people's opinion about my experiences." I marked "Agree a lot", though against the context of my entire life, not with regard to plurality specifically. Almost all of my responses were the same as I would have given back in my singleton days.

 

So what I'm hearing from you is that the general public doesn't ever get to hear about your plural experiences and therefore can't have an opinion of them for you to trust or distrust. For the question, you responded based on your trust level of people who actually get to know something about your experiences.

 

I've encountered some skepticism and made some people uncomfortable, speaking about plurality to people who don't roleplay, aren't otherkin, and don't have DID. My best friend of sixteen years is creeped out at the idea that it's possible for someone else to live in her head and have different opinions than her. I've never been shunned or ridiculed though. It's never even damaged a relationship. But I also don't put it on my resume.

 

But what about the BCSS? Other people are hostile. Other people are harsh. Other people are unforgiving. Other people are bad, devious, nasty, fair, good, trustworthy, accepting, supportive, truthful. How do you define "other people" in the context of agreeing or disagreeing with those statements? To me, the obvious approach is to consider what I know of humanity as a whole in the context of my aggregate interactions with them.

 

1 hour ago, Luminesce said:

unlike hallucinations from starvation/sleep deprivation/drugs or mental disorders, these are obviously not actually masquerading as visual stimuli and are only being treated as such.

 

Almost a year after I first told you I have no idea what you mean by imposition, I still have no idea what you mean by imposition. You still make it sound like overlay visualization treated as real (which is what we do, and very well after thousands of hours of practice), even though you've denied that. Everyone else seems to mean making internally generated sensory data be interpreted by the brain as if it were externally generated -- sometimes more realistically, sometimes less, but always intermixed with data from the physical senses.

 

Dr. Palmer-Cooper approached tulpamancers as part of her research into "unusual sensory experiences", using the same format as her ASMR research. Her collection of surveys don't meaningfully address plurality, which doesn't inherently involve sensory experiences anyway. So if imposition is to be discounted as well, there's really no point in her to coming to us, as tulpamancers rarely have unusual sensory experiences.

 

-Ember

 


I'm not having fun here anymore, so we've decided to take a bit of a break, starting February 27, 2020. - Ember

 

Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]

Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, World of Darkness, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017

Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Winter Court of Faerie, Dresdenverse, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

 

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit

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10 hours ago, Ember.Vesper said:

Almost a year after I first told you I have no idea what you mean by imposition, I still have no idea what you mean by imposition. You still make it sound like overlay visualization treated as real (which is what we do, and very well after thousands of hours of practice), even though you've denied that.

 

Fair enough lol, seems like another case of inability to share experiences directly confusing people on a subject words can't describe well enough, like with Switching for some systems. I actually recently (since we've been doing a lot of imposition for the last couple months) checked the difference in "visualizing my tulpas in the real world" versus imposition, and there's still definitely a marked difference. Imposition's "sense of presence" is definitely the biggest thing - it's more immersive, like my tulpas are actually there in the world with me, and switching between the two just feels different in a way I can't describe in words. But I get that they sound the same, I'm not sure how to define the experiences any better. And if your "overlay visualization" can also have a sense of presence and immersion, it's probably actually another case of developing a slightly different experience that's very close to but not exactly the same as ours, the problem we're seeing a lot with full body possession vs switching recently.

  

10 hours ago, Ember.Vesper said:

Everyone else seems to mean making internally generated sensory data be interpreted by the brain as if it were externally generated -- sometimes more realistically, sometimes less, but always intermixed with data from the physical senses.

 

Yeah, that still sounds about right. But I'm pretty good at working with my own experiences, and I consider the ability to simultaneously logically explain-away and yet still believe in something at the same time a legitimate skill I've learned, so maybe I talk about it a little differently than others do. I do hold a lot of beliefs (I call them "understanding"s) about tulpamancy and tons of other aspects of life that, if most other people held, would drastically change their beliefs about those things and their experiences of them. But, they don't for me, because of this skill - I can simply choose believing/immersing myself as my intended experience anyways, feeling better for understanding it logically but not actually discrediting the experience either.

 

It's pretty nice, really.

 

10 hours ago, Ember.Vesper said:

there's really no point in her to coming to us, as tulpamancers rarely have unusual sensory experiences.

 

So you say, but I figure the whole point of a survey is to get some statistics to back that fact. I'm not even sure it's entirely true, I've seen a lot of people report things that I was uncomfortable attributing entirely to Tulpamancy, namely in systems that haven't had tulpas for long, when they report what basically seems like quick/minor hallucinations. I get the nature of what we're doing here makes that less weird, so I don't say anything, but...


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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