Ayaze

How "human" are tulpas, tulpa rights, and more.

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kdhasudai's (dont remember his name)

 

Close.

 

 

At any rate:

 

1. Much so. They are theoretically just as human as you or me, save the lack of an independent body. Theoretically.

 

2. Impossible to know, same as for anyone else. This would come down to your own personal beliefs--once again, same as for anyone else.

 

3. No, that's impractical. As Amber said, it's the body that counts. It would make no more sense to grant them citizenship than it would to charge for an extra admission to go to the theater.


"If this can be avoided, it should. If it can't, then it would be better if it could be. If it happened and you're thinking back to it, try and think back further. Try not to avoid it with your mind. If any of this is possible, it may be helpful. If not, it won't be."

 

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I do want to apologize. I'm not an asshole lol i just reacted to your questioning wrong. That's my bad

 

You are forgiven >_^


 

Close.

 

 

At any rate:

 

1. Much so. They are theoretically just as human as you or me, save the lack of an independent body. Theoretically.

 

2. Impossible to know, same as for anyone else. This would come down to your own personal beliefs--once again, same as for anyone else.

 

3. No, that's impractical. As Amber said, it's the body that counts. It would make no more sense to grant them citizenship than it would to charge for an extra admission to go to the theater.

 

more agreements.

 

i think the question is less "does this count" than "how far will we take it"

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I'll answer this as best I can, with my own opinions.

 

1. Tulpas are no different from you or me in most ways. They can't affect the physical universe directly without possession/switching. They can do certain things humans cannot (changing appearance on a whim, be living toasters, et cetera...), and they exist within our minds. Those are the only significant differences I can think of.

 

2. I made a similar post about religious beliefs and their relation to tulpae somewhere, but I can't link it at the moment. You might be able to find it from my profile page. Anyway, I don't believe in heaven, I see no reason to. The same goes for Quilten. If there turns out to be a heaven or afterlife of any sort, I would expect Quilten to experience it just as I do. We are seperate minds, and therefore what some might call different souls.

 

 

3. No. The plethora of issues that would come with assigning legal citizenship to tulpae would be ridiculous. I think they deserve to be treated well, and within the rights that any given person should have. Having tulpae vote, for example, could get problematic. People might fake tulpae to get in forty votes (the electoral college really takes care of this, but a lot of people don't live in the United States. Even so, it's still problematic). I would go into more detail but I don't think it's necessary to list off every problem with every law that might come up assigning citizenship to tulpas.

 

More on ethics. Tulpae are minds just like we all are (I hope) and should be treated as such. Ethically, and as we should (should) treat any other human. If it were possible to solve the problems of legally granting citizenship to tulpae, they should get to vote, among other things. Unfortunately there would have to be a way to prove someone has a tulpa and that it is the tulpa casting their own vote.

 

I'd like to hear others opinions on this because I am not 100% clear on where I stand on this.


[align=center]Even though my username is that of my tulpa, Quilten, my name is Phaneron, the host, who does all of the actual posting.

Tulpas: Quilten, Jira

[/align]

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Guest amber5885

Toby's response to the citizenship/human rights debate:

 

Please don't put human responsibility on me lol I don't think I could take it. Giving me any kind of "human" rights such as the right to vote would be pure rubbish, a total waste of time and quite frankly I don't want it.

 

Now don't get me wrong I've offered to take over and work a day or two for amber... She won't let me but I offered but that's as far a I would want to go. I'm not human. I don't want to be human. I don't want your responsibilities.

 

I'm happy being simple and I'm happy being what I am without any bells and whistles.

 

I do see myself as human. As far as I am concerned there is no difference between you an I aside from my lack of beig able to move a coffee cup or have a pulse. So what?

 

That doesn't mean that I don't crave the things every human craves. Love, respect, comfort, security. I don't want to know it but I know that there are people out there who create us to abuse us and I feel really sorry for the tulpas trapped in those situations. I treat amber with nothing but kindness and respect. I do expect the same.

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1) As much as they chose to be. However they do have some very distinct differences, for one we don't require attention to survive like a tulpa does.

 

2)- differs based on religion, and the view of the soul. As A deist I take a very strong " lol I dunno " stance.

 

3)- No. And Define rights? Technically they are part of the mind of the host, autonomous, but still part of it? A lot of times where I can see possible rights being violated there is a connection to the host's freedom.


"The Question is not who is going to let me, its who is going to stop me"~ Ayn Rand

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I do want to apologize. I'm not an asshole lol i just reacted to your questioning wrong. That's my bad

 

IT IS FINE.

I've been around long enough to see your point of view. We are both at fault, and regretful of our actions. But hopefully, it should end in unity.

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Another tulpa's opinions:

 

1) In a lot of ways, a tulpa is what you put into them. If you want someone fully formed with their own desires and wants and issues and hang-ups then that's what you'll get. Your tulpa is as like you as you make them.

 

2) I'm an atheist. Heaven, if it existed, would be an exclusive gentlemen's club full of entitled humans. I'd only want to go there if I can kick everyone there in the nuts.

 

3) Immigration and migration are huge issues in almost all Western countries at the moment. It seems a bit skewed to be thinking about giving citizenship to tulpas when the system won't given citizenship to people fleeing war zones and torture.

 

Putting that aside--because I'm lucky enough that Dylan lives in a safe country in a safe neighbourhood--Virginia Woolfe made a very good point. I mean, I have political and ethical views of my own (as I'm sure you can tell) and I want those views to be listened to in the society I live in. The society I live in is Dylan's society. At the moment, the only way I can do that is to influence Dylan. So I'm kind of in the position of a women before they got the vote. In order to be independent, to have power over my life, to be validated as a person, I need to be able to have independent control over expressing my views. While I'm dependent on Dylan, I always have to be careful not to express any view that will piss him off. If I piss him off, he can instantly cut off any ability I have to express myself.

 

But... We really can't go giving tulpas political representation and citizenship. I mean, you've heard of those Quiverful lot? People are having physical children and raising them up specifically for the purpose of using them stuff ballot boxes. Can you imagine the kind of shit people would get up to if tulpas had the vote?

 

So, I have to trust Dylan to represent me if I feel I need it. I have to trust him to respect my rights as an individual. It's a lot of trust, but if I can't give him that sort of trust, then maybe I should find myself another host. There's certainly problems in our relationship that we need to talk about.


Tulpa and proud. So real I've got my own Facebook account.

 

Hosted by Dylan.

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K's answers:

1) Like amber wrote, we have feelings and goals too. And basically we're born from your thoughts. But I wonder, is it enough to say that humans and tulpas are "alike"? Maybe we shouldn't take it for granted.

2) I... don't know.

3) Sorry, but what am I supposed to do with a citizenship?

 

I'm not human. I don't want to be human. I don't want your responsibilities.

 

I'm happy being simple and I'm happy being what I am without any bells and whistles.

 

K: Toby, you're so cool! It's great to see tulpas who are so proud of themselves. But I would like to be human, it would be so interesting... any human here who would like to be a tulpa? Haha, just joking.

 

While I'm dependent on Dylan, I always have to be careful not to express any view that will piss him off. If I piss him off, he can instantly cut off any ability I have to express myself.

 

K: Sounds rough...


While I was rushing downward to the lowland,

Before mine eyes did one present himself,

Who seemed from long-continued silence hoarse.

When I beheld him in the desert vast,

“Have pity on me,” unto him I cried,

“Whiche’er thou art, or shade or real man!”

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I probably shouldn't be answering this, but here goes:

 

 

1) I think that tulpae are alike in humans in a lot of ways, but it doesn't mean that you should exaggerate that.

Yes, tulpae should be treated equal imo, but there are differences, even if they're slight like having a physical form rather than a mental form (or both).

 

That's not to say they shouldn't be treated equal/ in a nice way; your tulpa is your closest friend, and you shouldn't really make them feel inferior, IMO.

Realistically, humans and tulpae are alike, except that humans have a physical form, which most tulpae don't seem to have a problem with or even find a need in having one themselves, from what I see on this thread.

 

2) I don't know, I'm an atheist.

If there was/is one, I'd imagine they'd come with us unless they're limited to the body only.

Nobody can answer this yet, and I doubt ever will be able to.

 

3) Legally or figuratively?

I seriously can't see your thinking in this; what are tulpae supposed to do with a citizenship now?

 

Put this together in five minutes; I would write more, but I've got to go.


PR

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