Linkzelda

Dissipation - The End of a Tulpa or the End of the Novelty Behind Them?

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The problem is we are bumping heads because neither will budge. You are saying it isn't possible to revive a tulpa because they would come back changed. I say that reviving a tulpa is possible, even if they are changed.

 

Nah that's not the problem. The problem is you don't understand what he's actually trying to say. Which is okay, because I don't really either. But let's look at that, shall we?

 

The question never was if it was possible to bring back a dissipated tulpa - it was, whether they would be the same as before.

 

For this, the answer is no, obviously:

 

Again, I disagree. Melian seems to have the same mentality I do. I'll use the same analogy I used with Felix here to describe something I consider relevant.

 

In a faraway future where science has reached magic-levels of amazingness, say they've created a way to teleport humans extreme distances across space for whatever fancy future reasons we have to do that. But to do that, what happens is some technology analyzes you atom for atom, and then with other atoms completely rebuilds you atom for atom in the new location, recycling the atoms from your old body effectively killing "you".

 

Do you consider the new body to be you? Almost no one does, from who I've asked. For most people, it's something like your "spirit" or "consciousness" was lost and the new one isn't you - that's borderline metaphysical whether they say it is or not. Felix though is even more confusing, because he refuses to call it metaphysical. He states it is no longer you because it literally is not the same atoms as you were made of before.

 

But why does that matter? That implies there was value in those atoms staying those atoms. Nothing about memories or experiences or personality or what have you, what mattered was those exact atoms you were "born with".

 

But I disagree, I find it totally fine. New me is still me. Because our atoms are changing every second, and most of what is currently physically "you" was not so ten years ago - everything in your body is interacting with the environment, and literally "atom for atom" you are not made of what you used to be. I consider this that on a larger scale, ie it doesn't bother me at all. If new me is literally a perfect copy as stated as the case in the hypothetical, then I still consider it me. Would have no problem teleporting all over the place.

 

I don't know if Melian agrees with that per se, but to me it seems relevant to my opinion on dissipation. Because I still consider my tulpa, Scarlet, to be who she was before dissipation. And she definitely changed, not even just "technically 0.0000001%", changed a lot. But as far as either of us is concerned it's still her. Felix would say that literally, scientifically, logically, she is no longer the tulpa that once existed... But he's also implying that that means anything. And that assumed meaning is where you guys aren't understanding each other. You're welcome!

 

Quick note at Linkzelda, I didn't mean for the friend moving away analogy to have anything at all to do with this topic, it really was an unfortunate analogy. I was only trying to describe the feeling of "luckiness", as opposed to the description of an event being lucky. But the way you used it as an example was perfectly legitimate, just wanted to say.

 

 

 

Man, humans are weird. Not only do they not know how to walk away from a disagreement, they seem often entirely incapable of understanding the misunderstanding that caused it. I've experienced this, and the harsh action taken as a result, literally three times in the last 24 hours. Felix left the forum, a friend of four years blocked me, and a mutual friend in return blocked him. And here I was, completely unphased, a neutral party whether or not I was part of the argument trying to help everyone understand each other. But I couldn't even make my friend not-block my other friend. And Felix certainly doesn't understand how to recognize a misunderstanding from legitimate arguing. And Melian/Mistgod don't understand how to recognize the actual misunderstanding and keep arguing logically for the wrong point, though they've more tolerance than most people they argue with (just like me!).

 

Well. I'd say "Can we not?", but this is all of humanity I'm talking about here. I just find it a bit silly - illogical really, as my friend compared me to Spock during these arguments, unable to understand emotion. Actually, I just prefer my understanding of logic.

 

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Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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Guest Anonymous

I would drive Mr. Spock completely mad.

 

Yes, I agree with your teleporter analogy. Tulpas are even more complicated because they share atoms with the host. Tulpas do not have a separate brain. They share the wires so to speak and the CPU. In fact, exactly why tulpas fade is kinda a little mysterious.

 

EDIT: Here I related a very personal story that I decided to remove. It shouldn't have been posted here. It is too dark of a memory for my hostie so I am sorry, I have to remove it.

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I know, I know, I am not a tulpa so maybe it doesn't count. But I hate this talk about once your dissipated you can't come back

 

I consider you a tulpa, and that's not what they're trying to say. They value that originality, in that they would not consider the re-made clone of themselves the original "them". And it wouldn't be, but you and I don't see why that should matter. Apply that to dissipation, they're saying the tulpa that comes back won't be the exact same tulpa that was dissipated. But you and I don't see why that should matter.

 

It's just a difference in values, nothing more or less to understand.


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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Guest Anonymous

Well their values stink. My problem is that certain individuals in the past have been happy skippy to throw around that "killer" and "murderer" label at others on this forum. Also, when ThreeSevens asked for advice on bringing back Thyme, this is the responses we saw

 

In my experience, no, if a tulpa is truly gone, you can't bring them back regardless of what you do.

 

Did you regard the act of killing Thyme as that, an act of killing a living being? And do you regard Thyme as dead? Then sorry, what you did almost certainly WAS an act of killing. And the dead don't return, no matter how much it hurts.

 

So ThreeSevens was influenced by his family to let Thyme fade. And for that AGGuy labels it an act of killing and tells him there is no hope, as if he is a horrible person.

 

My reaction was this

 

My dear friend. I mean no offense, but in my experience, I think absolute statements like this are more than likely a bunch of horse poopies. I think your extensive experience in this matter isn't worth diddly spit.

 

and this...

 

How do you know this to be true? Are you even sure he succeeded in killing Thyme?. You seem to know and awful lot about another person's mind and tulpa.

 

I HATE, HATE this labeling and judging and negativity. I am trying but I don't like it and I don't want people to get away with this! I promised no drama and look at me.

 

But we all know right now ThreeSevens is asking for help in bringing back Thyme. Are tulpas people or not? I swear to the gods above I don't understand sometimes. On one hand everyone here talks about them being people, but often, when it comes right down to push or shove I seem to care more about tulpas that many. Why would you put out this particular kind of negative message when we know for a fact a member is here trying to save a lost tulpa?

 

The timing stinks with these negative messages.

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Keep in mind we're talking about death here. No one knows what happens after in real life, so everyone has their own ways of thinking about it inside their own mind. Tulpa death can be just as real to someone as their tulpas were in the first place.

 

True your belief is a happier one, and it is generally what I promote, but you have to promote it side by side the others, not against them. If they argue with you just say they're your beliefs, that you believe are good. Don't ever argue beliefs. But do argue that each person is free to believe as they choose, and that your proposal is just as legitimate a choice as theirs.

 

That sound good?


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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Guest Anonymous

I said I would live and let live, but that is hard when someone gets hurt. The story of Thyme when right to my heart! How can people be so cold with their responses and "advice?" I don't understand it. I guess I can be glad that I was one of the voices of encouragement. So far it looks like things are going pretty good. I am glad I came back to Tulpa Info when I did.

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"But it will still be a new 'version' of them..." isn't that true, estoterically, of everyone, even us. "You cant step into the same river twice." Everytime you meet someone, you qualitatively change. For better or worse, every contribution we make here changes each other. Tulpas change lives. Their absence would, too. I don't regret past love, as I'm a better man for it. Jimmy Stewarts "it's a wonderful life" is predicated on this theme. So even if a vanquished tulpa returns, they will know that they went away and why, as you will, too, even if it's never discussed, and both of you will know that the other knows, and that changes things, too. Is the Tulsa diminished, are we diminished... I can only imagine John done weighing in here, "don't ask for whom the bell tolls..." wonderlands are theoretically inifite, I wonder why we don't frame an absence as withdrawal, as opposed to dissipation.

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@Lumi

The question never was if it was possible to bring back a dissipated tulpa - it was, whether they would be the same as before.

 

For this, the answer is no, obviously:

Again, I disagree.

You disagree but continue to say almost the same that I said. ;-) I am also skeptical that "the same" is even a meaningful concept, as everyone changes all the time.

 

@Melian

My problem is that certain individuals in the past have been happy skippy to throw around that "killer" and "murderer" label at others on this forum.

 

Well, if I believed it possible to kill a tulpa through dissipation, I would not hesitate to call everyone a killer that purposefully did that. Where's the problem? Let's not make "this sounds so awful and not nice" a standard of what's actually true. Sometimes the truth is awful.

 

@Lumi (I think..)

Don't ever argue beliefs. But do argue that each person is free to believe as they choose, and that your proposal is just as legitimate a choice as theirs.

Nah, I don't choose my beliefs. Imho, beliefs are the result of being convinced by something or someone.

 

@Link

Note that at this point our own preconceptions of how tulpas are come into play... but it is too early for that.

 

I don’t think it’s too early to talk about anything here. Talk about it if you want. It just adds on to the discussion. Even if we can’t reach a consensus, that’s okay, because that’s not the only point. It’s just to iron out as much as we want to for as long as we can.

I didn't mean it was too early too argue. I still think it is too early to reach a "final" conclusion.

 

While I'm slightly more in the camp of "tulpas cannot die" for me personally, I recognize that everyone is different and there may actually be people whose tulpas can die. Throwing that possibility out just because a majority of people apparently don't feel that way seems a bit rushed.

 

Of course there is also the problem that our beliefs do actually shape our experiences. So yes, please don't encourage people thinking that they will kill their tulpa - that may actually be harmful itself. But at the same time, respect the people who do think that tulpas can die. And perhaps, encourage people to think about what this "death" is actually about. Because losing a memory might not be as bad as losing a person entirely, and a resurrected-but-different tulpa might turn out to be okay.

 

But it’s because dissipation broke that continuity of identity that causes that confusion as to whether or not they would be the same as before.

This.


 

 

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Guest Anonymous

@Melian

 

Well, if I believed it possible to kill a tulpa through dissipation, I would not hesitate to call everyone a killer that purposefully did that. Where's the problem? Let's not make "this sounds so awful and not nice" a standard of what's actually true. Sometimes the truth is awful.

 

Well, AGGuy was right about one thing. For me, everything is imaginary sparklies and rainbows and happiness, or at least I want it to be. But do these guys have to be so brutally honest to someone trying to save a lost tulpa? Can we fart some sunshine once in a while to give someone a jump start? I mean gawdz...why is "being realistic" about bringing a dissipated tulpa back really helpful?

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This topic interests me and I would like to participate but GODDAMN I ONLY HAVE A FINITE LIFESPAN.

 

Can someone give like a "summary so far" or something? And can everyone put a summary of your post at the beginning and know I won't read anything besides that? Pretty please?


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