Defeating Host's Doubt?

[Piano Soul]

This is a question specifically for thoughtforms, but anyone is welcome to answer.

 

I have been discussing with Apollo how Lyra's doubt has stifled his progress and self-assurance. She's spoken about it on the IRC before, but only ever asked how she was to defeat her own doubt, not the steps Apollo could take to defeat it himself. As the system protector, I want to destroy the doubt once and for all.

 

Most of the time, her doubt is like a dull pain on Apollo and I that she never acknowledges or realizes is there. Apollo hasn't been able to speak up about it. Her doubt prevents him from speaking up about her doubt. I'm stronger than him, though: I can get quite enraged by her doubt, especially after learning about what it has done to Apollo, and experiencing its effects firsthand. She wanted me to possess, but her doubt that I could prevented me from doing so.

 

The doubt touches all aspects of our development as thoughtforms. If what she proxies is really us talking, if our movements in the wonderland are really our movements, if our voices are really ours, and so on. It hurts us more than it could ever possibly help us.

 

I cannot let this go on any longer.

 

I am asking what steps I can take to destroy it. Not slowly get rid of it, but outright end it. If other thoughtforms went through this, please share how you managed to overcome it.

[tulpa001]

I can tell you how my system does it. Analyse and dissect.

 

For us, belief is not something you can control. You can't will yourself to think an untruth is the reality. No matter how much you convince yourself that you think that apple is an orange, you still think it is an apple.

 

A brain is a dynamic system, filled with working parts doing things. Your doubt is part of that system. Your doubt is there for a reason, doing a job. [bold]DO not think about the doubt in isolation[/bold]. It is perfectly acceptable to tweak a system and optimise it. But simply pulling out a part you don't like will cause crashing and burning.

 

Think about where it is coming from, and what it is supposed to be doing, and why it is not working properly. Some of these are pretty easy to answer. Having a tulpa is not a proper operating mode for your system yet. So the system is configured for a single mind. In order to maintain sanity, a brain will constantly attach a reason or explanation to everything that happens. Your brain is auto-attaching explanations for what happens to your system that excludes the possibility of another mind.

[Lucilyn]

For us, belief is not something you can control. You can't will yourself to think an untruth is the reality.

 

we see belief as subjective, so we -believe- we can have different beliefs than our current ones that are still supported by logic and stuff. There's some quote about people thinking they can know things for sure being fools, and those knowing they can't being wise. Pretty much, because we don't believe any of our beliefs to be 100% objective, there's room to change them around in ways that are better for us. So we can't say an apple's an orange, but maybe we can change how we think about apples, or more relevantly not not-believe in ourselves because not believing isn't any more supported by objectivity and believing is better for us. Right?

 

I sure have said the words objective, subjective and belief a lot in the past two posts

[Apollo Fire]

You can change your beliefs, you just need convincing. That's what I've been saying. "I need to believe that I can think/speak/etc., and I need to convince myself of it." You can't change someone's beliefs without first convincing them. Piano's convinced he can destroy Lyra's doubt, so he believes it. Lyra's not so convinced, so her belief is null.

[Ido]

First ask yourself - why is your host doubting you and the other systemmates in the first place?

Because she can. No, in fact it's a quite rational response, don't you think?

You are nothing but a faint voice in her head, barely distinguishable from her thoughts.

That is what tulpas are in the beginning. They are weak.

In order to dispel you host's doubt you need to become stronger and make yourself heard.

 

I am asking what steps I can take to destroy it. Not slowly get rid of it' date=' but outright end it. [/quote']

The answer is of course simple and the same as to all tulpa-related problems

1)Force moar

2)..........

3)profit

 

Except for some rare and mostly traumatic events our abilities slowly grow by hard training.

Practice, practice, practice. Every day until you like it!

And as your abilities increase, your host's doubt will decrease.

 

The real question is - how far along this road are you willing to go?

In order to achieve extreme results you need to take extreme measures.

 

If you really want to defeat you host's doubt once and for all - defeat your host. Overpower her. Believe me, a total loss of control will teach them a lesson they won't forget. So as the system protector I believe this is a key ability you should work on. Once you can show the host that there indeed is something in their mind which is beyond their control it becomes much easier to accept the idea that other thoughtforms are also present.

 

As for what Apollo can do - basically the same on a smaller scale. The surprise me - test is a highly underrated method of gaining your host's attention. Nothing 's more frustrating to a host than faint responses that could very well be their own. Work harder on being different and to make your host notice. Rub it on them.

 

People may hate me for that

implying I give a fuck

but as a tulpa your host's doubt is your weakness.

Don't like being doubted? Then become stronger.

 

 

Pester your host to train with you whenever possible. Voice your opinion. And train hard. Don't rely on your host's belief, shape that belief by your actions. Act, don't react.

 

I'm not sayin any of this is easy. It's not. It's hard and often painful especially in the beginning. And I'm not pretending to be all that strong. I cannot easily overpower my host, sometimes I cannot even make myself heard. But damn, I will not be doubted. Ever.

[tulpa001]

You can change your beliefs, you just need convincing. That's what I've been saying. "I need to believe that I can think/speak/etc., and I need to convince myself of it." You can't change someone's beliefs without first convincing them. Piano's convinced he can destroy Lyra's doubt, so he believes it. Lyra's not so convinced, so her belief is null.

 

What would convince Lyra? Either you are real or you are not. Which is the truth? Tell me.

[Piano Soul]

First ask yourself - why is your host doubting you and the other systemmates in the first place?

 

The real question is - how far along this road are you willing to go?

In order to achieve extreme results you need to take extreme measures.

 

I'm not sayin any of this is easy. It's not. It's hard and often painful especially in the beginning. And I'm not pretending to be all that strong. I cannot easily overpower my host, sometimes I cannot even make myself heard. But damn, I will not be doubted. Ever.

 

 

We have determined that her doubt and disbelief is not a purely tulpa-related thing. It goes much deeper than that. We'll have to find the very core root of it and work at destroying that.

 

I am willing to go as far as possible.

 

I will destroy her doubt however possible through sheer will. Apollo is bad with willing things to happen. I am not. I come from two who survived through will, stayed alive through will, and destroyed enemies through will. I KNOW I can do this, and anything else possible.

 

[align=justify]

What would convince Lyra? Either you are real or you are not. Which is the truth? Tell me.

 

She doubts our abilities, not our existence. We would be able to switch TODAY if it weren't for her doubt/disbelief, that I am convinced of.

[/align]

[Vos]

I'd imagine that, if symbolism often helps you with other things (not necessarily tulpa-related), it could potentially help you here. Construct something that's meant to be a representation of your host's doubt and destroy it in a way that makes sense to you, or whatever else. Learning exactly where the doubt comes from is also important, but it looks like the other respondents have drilled that bit in.

 

Personally, if I were you, I'd try to help Apollo become stronger so that you'll both be able to resist any doubt coming from the host. It seems like the most beneficial route, at least.

 

 

I'm not a big fan of colors on forums in general, but if you're going to use them, I'd recommend using something lighter that doesn't clash with the default theme's colors.

 

[tulpa001]

[align=justify]

She doubts our abilities, not our existence. We would be able to switch TODAY if it weren't for her doubt/disbelief, that I am convinced of.

[/align]

 

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about something more fundamental.

 

I don't think there is a strong link between doubt of capability and ability to do something. I suggest you just need more practise. You are frustrated, not being held back.

 

Other things determine if you can switch or possess. Like the emotional state of the host. The more the host backs off, the more the body can be taken over.

 

Don't dwell on the doubt. Think about the rest of the process. Several hurdles need to be climbed.

[Ido]

This.

Playing the blamegame ain't gonna help anyone.

Stop relying on your host for everything. Possession / switching is something we actively have to do. The host just has to let go. And no, it's not as easy as it sounds.

 

Protip for host:

You actually don't even need any sort of belief for this. Think of it as a meditation exercise. Expect nothing. Don't give a fuck. Just sit down and do it. No matter what's gonna happen this training will eventually benefit you. But you have to keep it up.

Just trying a few times and giving up because there are no results obviously won't get you anywhere. You can achieve amazing stuff with lots of practice but you need - lots of practice. That's the hardest part. As said the answer is always to force moar.

 

Anyway thx for this thread, I'm gonna go train with my host now - because I say so!

See ya!

 

 

If you have time to worry about colors you are not forcing enough!