How Powerful is Switching?

[TB]

If one makes a tulpa, and they are a completely different person, will switching cause behavior to be completely different?

If you are really switching with a different person, it should, shouldn't it?

If, for example, someone has severe social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder, but the tulpa does not have these things, would switching allow the body to effortlessly perform the behaviors that are normally so difficult to perform such that they don't occur despite desire for them to be accomplished?

Tulpas do not have personality disorders just because the host has them, do they? They are called personality disorders, after all, and as such are ingrained in the personality, and a tulpa is a different and fresh personality, right?

 

[Luminesce]

29 minutes ago, TB said:

If, for example, someone has severe social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder, but the tulpa does not have these things, would switching allow the body to effortlessly perform the behaviors that are normally so difficult to perform such that they don't occur despite desire for them to be accomplished?

  

Effortlessly, I don't know, but to some extent yes. I am definitely introverted and always have been, and my first three tulpas are too, but Lucilyn is definitely extraverted, to the point where it's obvious. Even stuck sitting in our room due to our brain's overarching motivation issues and all, she's still constantly looking for people to interact with, whether in video games or Discord servers or with our friends in voice chat. And when she does actually get to go to a party, she doesn't feel drained at all afterwards, just happy that it happened.

 

Your tulpa will still be living in the same brain, and honestly switching is very interesting in how it shows you how much was "you" and how much was maybe just your brain overall because those certain things were shared by your tulpas when switched.

 

But to some extent (that may vary by system and tulpa), they can be pretty dang different from you. First of all, my tulpas for example, who you probably know by now. All these years later I still end up having to rely on Tewi to do things I can't. Miri and Mirichu are another good example of tulpa being so different from host though, possibly closer to being in line with your question about personality disorders too.

 

But my tulpas still experience my brain's overarching motivation issues. That didn't just disappear, and I don't think any disorder will, as they're strongly associated with your brain in general. But the extent to which they affect your tulpas still varies quite a bit - Tewi definitely "experiences" my motivation issues, but unlike me she's able to fight through them and do what she wants to do anyways. I think it probably varies by tulpa and also by the disorder - I think anxiety and depression are easier for a tulpa to avoid than say ADHD or autism. Depends on how possible it is for your brain to not work that way, and also just how strongly different your tulpa is from that, and probably how strong their sense of self and development are too.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Luminesce

[TB]

I see.

 

If I am not wrong about Rena, she shouldn't have these feelings at all, and was not intended to be created with any association with those disorders. Also, if social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder are physically the brain/body, that would seem to imply there is nothing that can be done to heal them, at least not with therapy, as it would be physically related and not due to perceptions and the way I have been conditioned to cope and relate to the world. I am not inclined to believe they are physical, especially since I use to be extremely extroverted and happy, until bullying happened among other things, and the negative experiences changed my personality radically to degree of not functioning. She should be like a fresh start.

 

In that case, I am not sure how I should be attempting to switch or what the difficulty level is. I feel very uncomfortable trying to switch, because there isn't a clear indicator if something has happened (minus a strange "surreal" sensation that may or may not be present to varying degrees), and anytime I think I might have, there is the blatant corruption of my nervousness and anxiety. I don't like feeling like potentially a mixture of her and myself, and fear the disorders that she shouldn't have suddenly being experienced by her or attached to her.

 

How can I learn to switch while avoiding this?

 

 

And oh, to add to potential evidence it may not be inherently a hopeless brain situation, my dream last night involved me being one of my characters, and as I believed I was said character, I was having to talk to a large group of people with confidence in some attempt to lead or organize, if my memory isn't too inaccurate. As such, it seems it is possible for different behavior to occur from my personal window of perspective, just not as myself.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, TB said:

If one makes a tulpa, and they are a completely different person, will switching cause behavior to be completely different?

If you are really switching with a different person, it should, shouldn't it?

If, for example, someone has severe social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder, but the tulpa does not have these things, would switching allow the body to effortlessly perform the behaviors that are normally so difficult to perform such that they don't occur despite desire for them to be accomplished?

Tulpas do not have personality disorders just because the host has them, do they? They are called personality disorders, after all, and as such are ingrained in the personality, and a tulpa is a different and fresh personality, right?

 

 

Uuuh, kinda? It depends on the issues too. Take our OCD for example, it is pathological and so associated with how our brain works that none of us can avoid it AT ALL. Not even on medication. Depression? I didn't have it when I first started to switch, because I was exploring a new world from my perspective, I had a different view on things. The longer I spent switched in, the more depression started to affect me, why? because we never fixed the issues that caused depression in the first place, and so it affected me as well. So I suggest you fix them if you don't want Rena to go through the same ugly ''tulpa corruption'' as me.

 

I think it depends on if the issue is environmental or pathological, if the second, then not much you guys can do about it except get on medication. Personally, I think you're too obsessed with Rena being super pure and this angelic being that is perfect, and that can be veeeery damaging when you realize she's human after all and lives in the same brain that hosts the issues you hate so much. She won't be perfect, TB, she might be better than you at some things, but certainly not perfect.

 

3 hours ago, TB said:

How can I learn to switch while avoiding this?

 

See, this is why you should accept that she's human too, the sooner the better. She's not a character. Accept it and maybe anxiety will ease a bit. And don't be afraid of weird sensations, those are always good when it comes to switching, because even if they're not caused by switching, if you believe so, it will help you switch.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, TB said:

will switching cause behavior to be completely different?

 

Not always, but in my case, yeah.

8 hours ago, TB said:

but the tulpa does not have these things, would switching allow the body to effortlessly perform the behaviors

 

In my case, I didn't have those disorders, but I had bad triggers and moods and they did not, so when they switched in (Ashley, Joy, Ren and Darlene) they could genuinely handle situations I simply couldn't.

 

8 hours ago, TB said:

Tulpas do not have personality disorders just because the host has them, do they?

 

This is true by my experience anyway.

 

Some agree, but a few very vocal members of the community disagreed so it doesn't necessarily work for every system. However there was one or two systems that also changed their mind on the subject after being able to fully switch.

 

That indicates to me that personality suppression and replacement is indeed a thing. I don't know how healthy it is or if it works ling term, but in my case both. 

 

In my past, I suppressed and replaced a very damaged personality that had social anxiety and phobias. That was before having headmates. I desigbed and then acted out a new personality.

 

The closest thing to this would be exposure therapy but the exposure is done like an actor plays a part. Exposure therapy in this way worked for me, but only regression therapy (like shadow work) and stressory/anxiety removal (like chakra work) removed the triggers from popping up somewhere else randomly.

 

 

[Ranger]

In our experience, our mental disorders/conditions autism, anxiety, depression, social anxiety, and mild trauma all universally impact the system. For example, we're all autistic, ADHD, and probably depressed. As another example, I suspect I overreact to difficult life stuff because Cat has hit a point where not-so-stressful things lead to panic attacks. However, I wouldn't say I struggled with Cat's mild trauma in all of the same way.

 

With certain things like past bad experiences or social anxiety, a tulpa can have a mindset and a personality that helps them more easily overcome these things. For example, I could talk to Cat about her mild trauma from a removed perspective. I also challenged her to be more social and talk to people. Even though some of the symptoms are universal to the system, the individual experience can be very different simply because that headmate wasn't there to experience what lead to the trauma/social anxiety in the first place.

 

---

 

9 hours ago, TB said:

If you are really switching with a different person, it should, shouldn't it?

 

I want to first point out that I believe I'm not a completely separate person from Cat. Since we share the body, memories, and talk to each other, we will ultimately use the same body programs and we're more likely to agree on things. Normal indicators of seperation like behavior get a little complicated when you talk about switching.

 

With our switching, we believe that you are exposed to the habits of the previous fronter. Since Cat has spent the majority of the body's life controlling the body, the body and brain has stored everyday habits- how she walks, how she eats, how she puts her clothes on, etc. When switched-in, I am more deeply connected to that programming. It's a two way street: My behavior is affected by that programming, but I'm now in the position to overwrite it with my own habits. Over time, the body's habits and "feel" will be a mix of the most common switched-in fronters.

 

I don't know if you have seen the show iZombie, but that's another weirdly relevant example. Olive or Liv, the main character, is a zombie. When she eats other people's brains, she gets some of their weird habits, thought patterns, personality, mental disorders, etc. because TV logic. While a switched-in tulpa won't get a host's personality, they have the tools they need to mimic it and certain lines of thinking may be used because their host used said line of thinking to solve a problem.

 

9 hours ago, TB said:

If, for example, someone has severe social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder, but the tulpa does not have these things, would switching allow the body to effortlessly perform the behaviors that are normally so difficult to perform such that they don't occur despite desire for them to be accomplished?

 

Ironically, being closer to the switching front for us seems to correlate with being more influenced by our disorders/conditions. For instance, the closer I am to being switched-in, the more prone to anxiety I become. Being switched-out seems to be the safe zone and possession seems to offer a thin shield of protection compared to being fully switched-in. I also feel like I struggle with depression more when switched-in. However, I can't say I'm more autistic in the switching front than I am in the back, but I can argue whoever is switched-in is far more likely to stim than whoever is possessing. That's also not to suggest I'm immune to panic attacks in the back either.

 

On the bright side, having a headmate with a different life approach can start the development of healthier habits. While they may still experience similar problems, they may have a different approach or a personality quirk to better cope.

 

I believe working as a team to cope instead of perma-switching is the better way to go. If Rena switches in, there's a high likelihood she will burn out after a few weeks or so if she doesn't expect to experience similar problems you have. Having a plan in advance, sharing ideas, and taking turns are all things you can do together to work through it to enjoy the benefits of Rena fronting and for Rena to not get overwhelmed or burned out.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Ranger

[Luminesce]

11 hours ago, TB said:

Also, if social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder are physically the brain/body, that would seem to imply there is nothing that can be done to heal them, at least not with therapy, as it would be physically related and not due to perceptions and the way I have been conditioned to cope and relate to the world. I am not inclined to believe they are physical, especially since I use to be extremely extroverted and happy, until bullying happened among other things, and the negative experiences changed my personality radically to degree of not functioning. She should be like a fresh start.

 

I don't actually agree with tulpas-being-affected-by-(thing in mind) as a good metric for what can and can't change about you, at all. It's nice that tulpas can often avoid a lot of that stuff, but it's more of a miracle than a metric of anything. As Mirichu said, if no factors in your life or mind change at all, even your tulpa will start to be affected in the same way, getting there in the same way that you did.

 

They may start off fine and often do, but in order to not be influenced by the rest of the mind, they have to be a stronger influence on it. Take Tewi for example - my motivation issues are brain-wide and "affect" everyone in my system. However, Tewi's own way of working is so well established to her that she can generally fight through my motivation issues in any specific moment, though they probably wear on her in the long-term too. That's partly due to how strong Tewi's sense of self is, ie her development as a tulpa and as a person. The stronger this is, the more a tulpa can resist your or the brain's influence and continue to be themselves - maybe even start influencing the mind back, through living while switched.

 

But it's also in large part up to who and how she is, too - Flandre doesn't have any especially notable success at dealing with our motivation issues, despite being as developed and sure of her sense of self as Tewi, because there's not really anything about her that would lead her to be successful at that. While Reisen sort of avoids the entire problem in a weird non-head-on way, by simply being herself and thinking about things how she's sure she wants to think about them, she "No thanks"-s negative-motivation and similar thoughts to continue doing what she thinks is best.

 

Lucilyn experiences my motivation issues in her own way - they definitely drag her down and keep her from doing things that require a lot of going-out-of-your-way, but she's also got a lot more energy and determination to do the things she wants to do than me, so she's a lot better at getting out of ruts or not getting stuck doing nothing than I am.

 

These are four very different, but all very developed tulpas with strong senses of selves - in a single system. So obviously every tulpa in every system will vary immensely. But anyways, none of this means something about your brain is or isn't changeable. It really only speaks about tulpamancy itself. I've known plenty of hosts who got through depression or so on over the years, and it helps their tulpas out "living in that brain"-wise, while the tulpas themselves usually don't change very much if they were already positive-minded. Unfortunately, as good of an influence as a strong-willed tulpa can be, it's very unlikely to change your entire situation.

 

I've seen it happen, but that's because the tulpa does a lot more than just "be switched; affect mindset" - they also enact large changes to the system's life, maybe seeking medication even, but at least changes addressing what they see as the problems in your guys' life. On the lighter end, they may start exercising, going for runs or something - and on the heavier end they might help the host get a (new) job or even move or something.

 

But this is so rare. I almost never see tulpas this strong willed and insistent on changing their host's day to day life in such a direct way. But nonetheless, it's what would be required to address serious overarching problems of the system's.

 

The host could always do those exact same things too, though.

[TB]

It might help me to be told specifically what a strong "sense of self" is here, so I can better try to figure out if Rena has one or not

 

22 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

Unfortunately, as good of an influence as a strong-willed tulpa can be, it's very unlikely to change your entire situation.

That's not good

 

22 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

I've seen it happen, but that's because the tulpa does a lot more than just "be switched; affect mindset" - they also enact large changes to the system's life, maybe seeking medication even, but at least changes addressing what they see as the problems in your guys' life. On the lighter end, they may start exercising, going for runs or something - and on the heavier end they might help the host get a (new) job or even move or something.

That last part is what I am hoping for. After the past several years of living in my situation, and the fact I only saw major self improvement occur before the situation arose and it arising has caused almost all improvement to stagnate and for things psychologically to get worse, getting out is the only way I think I can heal. Therapy has been the most useless thing for me, even before things got much worse, and now that things are this bad, it is even less helpful. Medication also made me go downhill even more really fast, so do not want to keep trying a dozen more medications that also may likely not help and continue to lose more of myself than I have already lost. Rena switching in so she can perform the normal and basic behaviors normal people seem to be able to do to get their life started is the only way I can see things getting better anytime soon.

 

I am afraid to have her switch in, and then her feel the same barrier to doing basic things I feel. It would make the goal pointless and perhaps be a hit on her self esteem, and I don't want that situation to negatively effect how she is when switched out, too. Also, I don't think there would be much reason to have her switch in just to do things on her own for fun, because as long as I am not home alone, I have a constant anxiety that would be potentially deteriorating to her mental state if she has to experience it too. This would suck even more, since it sounds like being switched in is a good way to develop. But is developing worth it if it is developing neurosis?

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

Ironically, being closer to the switching front for us seems to correlate with being more influenced by our disorders/conditions.

I haven't been sure if anything I've done is switching, but from what I experienced, it seems these things would make sense if it is, though I don't like it working this way.

 

4 hours ago, BearBeaBeau said:

In my case, I didn't have those disorders, but I had bad triggers and moods and they did not, so when they switched in (Ashley, Joy, Ren and Darlene) they could genuinely handle situations I simply couldn't.

This is one of the more hopeful responses. Being able to do this would be great. I guess the question is just how to achieve it without falling into the other situations of Rena being similarly limited

 

It seems people are saying it depends on the disorders, the tulpa, and the system. I want to control things to have the best outcome possible and not be destined for the worst situation

 

It is confusing on what to do since I don't know how much it is something I can control or not, and it would be a shame if I end up never switching because the worst case scenario is the only option

 

9 hours ago, Miichu said:

Take our OCD for example, it is pathological and so associated with how our brain works that none of us can avoid it AT ALL.

Hmm, I didn't know OCD is pathological. I believe I have it as well, though I also thought it was something that can be fixed with good therapy or something. I maybe don't understand what pathological means very well, it seemed like it means something that can't be fixed

 

9 hours ago, Miichu said:

Personally, I think you're too obsessed with Rena being super pure and this angelic being that is perfect, and that can be veeeery damaging when you realize she's human after all and lives in the same brain that hosts the issues you hate so much. She won't be perfect, TB, she might be better than you at some things, but certainly not perfect.

This could be true, though I would like at the very least for her to be comparably normal and well adjusted, to the extent she can function in society at a basic level without incredible suffering. If I am currently unable to do it, I wonder what the probability is that she can or not, even if she isn't 100% perfect

 

9 hours ago, Miichu said:

See, this is why you should accept that she's human too, the sooner the better. She's not a character. Accept it and maybe anxiety will ease a bit. And don't be afraid of weird sensations, those are always good when it comes to switching, because even if they're not caused by switching, if you believe so, it will help you switch.

For me it is emotions, thoughts, and perceptions that remind me of myself that scare me. Weird sensations, if you mean like surrealness, I actually like and it seems to help make her feel different, and there usually isn't anxiety when it is very powerful, but it was only very powerful the first time and has since dampened. It is hard to tell if I switch, or if I am blending or something, or if it is something else entirely

 

 

I am sorry for replying backwards

[Luminesce]

14 minutes ago, TB said:

It might help me to be told specifically what a strong "sense of self" is here, so I can better try to figure out if Rena has one or not

 

Having a strong "sense of self" means you know who you are and do not doubt it, and in a tulpamancy sense also means you can clearly tell yourself apart from your systemmates. Being strong-willed is similar and very relevant too, though - all of my tulpas have a strong sense of self, but Tewi by far has the strongest will. A strong sense of self is necessary to enact your differences in mindset and such on the body/mind when switching, while a strong will is required for a tulpa to go make changes their host couldn't. Two pretty different things, honestly.

 

While she may or may not succeed at helping you in the ways she may want to, I wouldn't worry about her "developing neurosis" or whatever - my tulpas bounce back instantly when they're switched out even if they were feeling very drained by our motivation issues or most other things. They basically sign up for being affected by the mind in that way when switching, lol. (Assuming you have healthy switching/fronting habits and don't just put her in charge of your whole life, because then she may very well start to change a lot)

 

And I get why you want help from your tulpa so much, so I've been going very light on my normal "Don't rely on your tulpa to change your life so much" feeling, but I still can't urge you strongly enough to be in this together with your tulpa. You two should work together each doing what you can to improve your system's livelihood - historically tulpas can not get nearly as much done with an apathetic host as they can with one who wants to improve themselves too.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Luminesce

[TB]

36 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

Having a strong "sense of self" means you know who you are and do not doubt it, and in a tulpamancy sense also means you can clearly tell yourself apart from your systemmates.

Well, this may cause complications. In attempting to switch, I am not confident either way. I do not know if it is her who does not have a strong sense of self, or me, or what. Since I associate myself with my ability to experience and perceive, and not as strongly with thoughts or feelings, it just doesn't seem easy to have it ever be clear. If to have a strong sense of self, I have to take a very strong ownership of my thoughts and feelings and disown thoughts and feelings that I don't consider myself, that also seems problematic, as it would make me more resistant to change, I think. Unless I am misunderstanding it altogether.

 

39 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

Being strong-willed is similar and very relevant too, though - all of my tulpas have a strong sense of self, but Tewi by far has the strongest will. A strong sense of self is necessary to enact your differences in mindset and such on the body/mind when switching, while a strong will is required for a tulpa to go make changes their host couldn't. Two pretty different things, honestly.

When I first created her, I made a trait list, and in it is included not being inhibited by fear, and being determined, so I consciously forced such things into her. I do not know if it makes a difference or not, but I like to believe it does.

 

40 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

While she may or may not succeed at helping you in the ways she may want to, I wouldn't worry about her "developing neurosis" or whatever - my tulpas bounce back instantly when they're switched out even if they were feeling very drained by our motivation issues or most other things.

If we were on our own, I think I would be less afraid of her taking on neurosis of my mind and inner world. What I fear is her developing it from being forced to live in and interact with toxic people and toxic situations. It just isn't pleasant to do anything when screaming randomly starts happening in the house or people barge into my room wanting things from me or anything else that is disturbing.

 

43 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

And I get why you want help from your tulpa so much, so I've been going very light on my normal "Don't rely on your tulpa to change your life so much" feeling, but I still can't urge you strongly enough to be in this together with your tulpa. You two should work together each doing what you can to improve your system's livelihood - historically tulpas can not get nearly as much done with an apathetic host as they can with one who wants to improve themselves too.

I don't intend to be apathetic. It is just I have already spent many many years trying to get my life in order and live on my own and be happy. I don't want to say it is impossible, but I have done what I believe I can for an extended period of time, and things just aren't changing objectively, and it doesn't seem wise to just sit and wait another decade trying my best on my own, and see if things got better or worse, as if things continue generally as they have been, history seems to imply it will get worse, or at best stay the same (which is still worse, as being 30 years old but still in this situation is worse than being 24 years old and still in this situation). If I haven't become able to support myself and live on my own at this point, I don't see another option but to have Rena try it, and in theory, once we are out of the house and have privacy, I should be able to much more effectively work towards bettering myself and handling life. I don't want her to handle everything, it just would be nice if she can handle what I have consistently failed to handle for so long despite attempts to handle it. It is just unfortunate that it is kind of a lot.

 

If switching makes her have same anxiety and inhibitions that I do to going outside and interacting with people, and taking a huge leap like getting a job, then I wouldn't want to make her have to do it rather than me. Though in that scenario it would appear that neither of us can do anything, at least not that I am aware of. I don't want us to continue to rot here any longer, but I don't know what else to look at for solutions. None of this was my first stop, nor was it the reason I created her, as this situation got to where it was after I had already been working on her for a long time

 

Also, for me, living a normal independent life seems horrifying and is so confusing and scary, but I assume for someone who isn't dealing with these disorders, it maybe is at least okay or manageable, at least I assume since it seems most people do it, so it doesn't appear to be the cruelest thing in the world, and it is for the purpose of getting our system on its feet so we can have freedom and healing and work towards self actualization, instead of just being oppressed daily and trapped.