Are these both switching?

[TB]

Anytime I attempt switching, two different experiences can happen. In one, I still feel like myself but I have Rena's mindset a bit more. The other is more like becoming a completely different person. I don't know why that is and how to make it always the latter.

 

Sometimes when the first kind happens, I just feel like I am faking. I started trying to deliberately just assume faking is not going on, but it is still a difficult and uncomfortable way to be. The mind can still be chaotic passively and it is unpleasant sensorally in the body. I sometimes have to keep remembering I switched and the mind has to recenter. I don't know at points if I should just say I am not switched or if I should keep going back to thinking like Rena.

 

In the other switching, the body is sensorally very different and reality can be surreal. The mind will also seem pretty empty like a blank slate. Things seem new and my problems don't really exist anymore, at least as far as I can tell with limited experience switching like this.

 

In the first kind the mind has potential to still think a lot of useless thoughts which Rena doesn't typically do, and the body still is very stiff and produces strange body language. That would usually make me think I am not switched so maybe the first type of switching isn't even switching, but it is a result of making switching attempts. I don't like using just anxiety and awkward stiff body with messy thoughts as the difference between us since I want to get rid of those traits and I also don't want to ignore it if she has those problems, but it appears she does not have those things ever as a tulpa, and like I mentioned there are switching attempts that result in states that are totally different.

 

Is there any way to know what these two different things are and why they happen, and how to do the one I want?

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by TB

[Luminesce]

You might just not be good at switching yet, and getting incomplete switches. It can definitely take some mental gymnastics, and in the past my tulpas have had to do "grounding" to feel like themselves after switching in if it had been a very long time since they'd done so - and it can't possibly be easier for systems still learning to switch or with developing tulpas. I guess just.. practice? And keep in mind the belief/creating-your-experience factor. You'd probably switch back if the fronter convinced themselves they hadn't switched - though I wouldn't exactly know, as we've never allowed an incomplete switch before. Even if my tulpa doesn't thoroughly feel like themselves, when they know we've intended to switch they will believe it's so regardless of any possible doubts.

 

 

(this stuff is pretty rare and old for us, we don't have switching doubts, but I'm trying to frame the advice off our experiences..)

[Guest]

6 hours ago, TB said:

Is there any way to know what these two different things are and why they happen, and how to do the one I want?

The first one kinda sounds like an incomplete switch and the second one like a switch. The 'I feel like my tulpa' kind of switch. For the one you want, I already told you, Rena needs to move her mindvoice to the front.

 

1. You focus on making Rena stronger, by talking to her and having her talk.

2. You move your own mindvoice to the sides, where Rena's is.

3. Rena moves her mindvoice to where yours were, to the 'front'.

4. Rena focus on herself by repeating 'I am Rena' enough times and bam, you're switched.

 

That's the method we use minus step 1 and it works just fine. You could try that. Label the brain's thoughts as Rena instead of you. Rena has to think from the front and associate with it and the body. But you said it feels like a blank state when Rena fronts, so maybe she's still not developed enough to try switching?

[TB]

14 hours ago, Luminesce said:

I guess just.. practice?

I suppose I need an effective way to practice. Is it just trying a lot of times? I guess that is what I've done so far, though it isn't too often since it usually feels like I am doing something wrong. Hmm

 

14 hours ago, Luminesce said:

You'd probably switch back if the fronter convinced themselves they hadn't switched - though I wouldn't exactly know, as we've never allowed an incomplete switch before.

I wonder how it would seem if I didn't have such obvious strongly negative and problematic traits compared to her. If I didn't have anxiety issues and was more normal all the time, I think it might be hard to tell the difference between the two types of switching. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing though. I would be afraid of going around thinking I am switched while not, but it seems with tulpamancy, perhaps whatever you think is happening is what is happening I guess

 

14 hours ago, Luminesce said:

You might just not be good at switching yet, and getting incomplete switches.

 

8 hours ago, Miichu said:

The first one kinda sounds like an incomplete switch

Is there a common mistake or something that usually leads to incomplete switches? Or does it just stop happening after some hundreds of attempts doing the same process that got it to work once or twice before? It does seem suspicious to me that my first switch would be by far the most powerful and complete seeming, and >90% of the ones after that just go wrong for some unknown reason. It would seem like I have the ability to do it but now something else is getting involved that consistently screws it up. It is like the best switches happen if I am not intending to switch, but if that's the case I don't know how to ever switch when I want since that seems like the only thing I can notice that causes it to have high chance of failing.

 

8 hours ago, Miichu said:

1. You focus on making Rena stronger, by talking to her and having her talk.

2. You move your own mindvoice to the sides, where Rena's is.

3. Rena moves her mindvoice to where yours were, to the 'front'.

4. Rena focus on herself by repeating 'I am Rena' enough times and bam, you're switched.

Those steps are a large part of what I try to do. Having Rena come from front and center part instead of outside me like I usually imagine, and me trying to get out of the way. I've tried it with the very specifics being changed up every now and then, but I guess that is a primary part of any attempt.

 

8 hours ago, Miichu said:

But you said it feels like a blank state when Rena fronts

I get confused on difference of switching and fronting, though in that statement I mean specifically when a successful switch happens. And by blank slate I mean my mind doesn't have much reason to run around at 100mph anymore and I no longer feel like a person who has had a severe anxiety disorder for over a decade. When Rena successfully switches in, it is like running on a brand new well oiled machine or something, instead of whatever I got now that is grinding itself to death and always about to catch fire. The failed incomplete switches are basically having the horrible engine persist but Rena's thoughts and attitudes. It is also more likely the mind goes into thought trains I typically might do out of habit and I have to catch it and go back to thinking like Rena, but if it happens too much I just give up and concede Rena isn't in anymore. It is an upsetting process to subject oneself to

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, TB said:

It does seem suspicious to me that my first switch would be by far the most powerful and complete seeming, and >90% of the ones after that just go wrong for some unknown reason. It would seem like I have the ability to do it but now something else is getting involved that consistently screws it up. It is like the best switches happen if I am not intending to switch, but if that's the case I don't know how to ever switch when I want since that seems like the only thing I can notice that causes it to have high chance of failing.

This happens to us too. Our first -me fronting- switches were extremely powerful and then it was just 'meh' for most of the time. Perhaps you are getting used to it and that's why it feels less powerful. Or you're not switching.

 

14 minutes ago, TB said:

When Rena successfully switches in, it is like running on a brand new well oiled machine or something, instead of whatever I got now that is grinding itself to death and always about to catch fire. The failed incomplete switches are basically having the horrible engine persist but Rena's thoughts and attitudes. It is also more likely the mind goes into thought trains I typically might do out of habit and I have to catch it and go back to thinking like Rena, but if it happens too much I just give up and concede Rena isn't in anymore. It is an upsetting process to subject oneself to

Maybe when Rena successfully switches in, you're switched out, and that's why your thoughts don't interfer that much. And the ''incomplete'' switch would be Rena fronting without you switching out. Just a thought.

[YukariTelepath]

1 hour ago, TB said:

The failed incomplete switches are basically having the horrible engine persist but Rena's thoughts and attitudes. It is also more likely the mind goes into thought trains I typically might do out of habit and I have to catch it and go back to thinking like Rena, but if it happens too much I just give up and concede Rena isn't in anymore.

How much time do you give it? It can take time to settle for the new fronter (it's a big change for the brain after all). I'd suggest Rena give it an hour to feel more like herself. Some say 30 min, but I say 1 hour to be generous/patient. It's pretty typical for early switching attempts to end by the host thinking or their thought process getting triggered putting them back in front. 

 

1 hour ago, TB said:

Is there a common mistake or something that usually leads to incomplete switches?

 

Yeah, I'd say it's the host going "I, I, I, me, me, me, I guess I'm still switched in." Which is how your descriptions of switching go. What does Rena have to say about her experience here? When she switches in, does she have some motivation or thing she wants to do? Is she able to remain the primary thinker the whole time?

[Luminesce]

1 hour ago, TB said:

I suppose I need an effective way to practice. Is it just trying a lot of times?

 

Well, I mean, quality practice... Time spent attempting to get better. NOT just pure repetition (especially of something clearly not working), but also with a tolerance for trying repeatedly over time despite not getting perfect results. Learning switching really could just be summed up as "a whole lot of mental gymnastics", I guess.

 

I will say, our first times switching were also incredibly vivid. It was really like my tulpas were experiencing the body's senses for the first time, their attentions were easily captured by simply feeling and looking at the textures of things, et cetera. Didn't last more than a week or so, but they were vivid nonetheless.

 

Unfortunately it's hard to give normal tulpamancy advice like "common mistakes, wrong mindset" etc. for switching because so few people have done it, and those that have have never followed a clear and shareable path to success. There's a strong chance a lot of people don't even experience the same thing as other people when referring to switching, and we just can't tell. Anyways - you've seen what it can be, so you should strive to get closer and closer to that. That's about all I can say, I think.

 

 

1 hour ago, TB said:

I get confused on difference of switching and fronting

 

They're the same thing, sort of. Fronting is an umbrella term for a systemmate controlling the body, being "in the front". It contextually refers to being switched, full-body possessing, or something else, depending on the system. Probably used to refer to both by some systems who do both. When our system says "fronting" we're exclusively referring to being switched, because we don't do possession.

 

I have to admit it's an iffy term to use especially around other communities, because everyone has a different idea of what it means. Even on .info we can't keep it straight, lol. But like "system" it just fills a much-needed role as a word, so it's hard to avoid.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Luminesce

[TB]

22 minutes ago, YukariTelepath said:

How much time do you give it?

I think about 30 minutes. The last couple times I tried it lasted a little more or less than the duration of a walk. The last time before the walk ended it seemed pointless to continue trying as my thought process was pretty triggered. The attempt before that was comparatively more successful, but both very awkward and uncomfortable so Rena not feeling like herself for the duration.

 

25 minutes ago, YukariTelepath said:

Yeah, I'd say it's the host going "I, I, I, me, me, me, I guess I'm still switched in." Which is how your descriptions of switching go. What does Rena have to say about her experience here? When she switches in, does she have some motivation or thing she wants to do? Is she able to remain the primary thinker the whole time?

Yeah I do seem to still use term "I" when talking about switching sometimes, because on one hand since the point of view doesn't change it seems intuitive naturally, and on other hand in these failed switches it is increasingly more difficult to attribute whatever is going on to Rena so I don't really know what to say at that point.

 

The last couple times we tried switching, she wanted to take a walk I suppose. Nothing too particular since we want to be able to switch well before having larger goals. The majority of the time got spent with her thinking about what it is like to be so anxious and wondering what to do about it, so I guess there is a good side to it, but I would prefer her to not have to feel that way and for me to deal with that.

 

29 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

Well, I mean, quality practice...

Yeah fearing my practice isn't of quality is a thing that usually demotivates me. I suppose getting higher tolerance for failures is only thing I can think to do, though I do get paranoid if the painful experience would rub off negatively in long run or not. I don't want Rena to end up with anxiety like I do just because of trying to learn switching, though maybe that isn't possible, though since tulpamancy is so vague there maybe isn't anyone that could say if it would happen or not.

 

Not having anxiety in first place might help a lot with getting better switching experiences, but that is a large hill to climb to get to switching normally, and by that time, the idea of switching being a break to the body being anxious would be irrelevant.

 

Based on what Miichu has said, maybe I just am not good at switching out after Rena switches in, so we are just both fronting when that happens. I never did anything to switch out in my successes though, it was just default. Deliberately imaging myself to go out of body or have my essence drained out of body in a switching attempt doesn't seem to trigger it to happen if that is the problem either, it seems.

 

I guess I will try to make attempts more often and try to persist through failed attempts longer to see if they somehow get better. That has never happened before though, usually if it works I will know very quickly, but I suppose it could change. I just really hope it isn't cursed and leads to some kind of damage, and I also hope just fearing that might happen doesn't make it happen, because I can't just choose to not fear, I can only choose to make attempts despite fear. Self fulfilling prophecies are a pretty bogus and unfair concept that I don't know how to avoid, or if it is even possible to intentionally avoid them

[Luminesce]

2 minutes ago, TB said:

Yeah fearing my practice isn't of quality is a thing that usually demotivates me.

 

Quality practice is any practice where you're trying to get better as best you know how.

  

2 minutes ago, TB said:

I think about 30 minutes. The last couple times I tried it lasted a little more or less than the duration of a walk. The last time before the walk ended it seemed pointless to continue trying as my thought process was pretty triggered. The attempt before that was comparatively more successful, but both very awkward and uncomfortable so Rena not feeling like herself for the duration.

--

I guess I will try to make attempts more often and try to persist through failed attempts longer to see if they somehow get better. That has never happened before though, usually if it works I will know very quickly, but I suppose it could change.

 

I mean, like ten minutes of being in the switched state is fine. There's no reason to make it drag on if it's clearly not going well. More than 3 minutes is all I'd say is necessary, though a switch can easily become more stable 15+ minutes later, I don't think you should go for that unless the switch shows promise. Just a few (2-5) minutes may not be long enough to make an impact though. Feel it out, I guess. Try to recreate the times it's gone well, that's your goal.

  

2 minutes ago, TB said:

I don't want Rena to end up with anxiety like I do just because of trying to learn switching, though maybe that isn't possible, though since tulpamancy is so vague there maybe isn't anyone that could say if it would happen or not.

 

I can think of exactly one person, actually. Communication is very important between tulpa and host. If Rena says she isn't bothered, and that she wants to keep trying, then you're fine. If she says it's bothering her or getting her down, then you should probably take a break.

[Ranger]

On 3/12/2021 at 6:47 PM, TB said:

In one, I still feel like myself but I have Rena's mindset a bit more. The other is more like becoming a completely different person. I don't know why that is and how to make it always the latter.

 

I'm wondering if both of these experiences are two sides of the same coin. In our experience, we have had switching experiences that seemed surreal and experiences that seemed less genuine or fake or indistinguishable from possession. However, after deciding to practice anyway, we found that both were actually switching. When I first switched-in on command, it wasn't obvious to me and I was pretty upset and confused. However, after going along with it for some time, I realized I had a different sensory experience and I could zone out where I couldn't before. While attempting to switch, I think it's important for Rena to say "I am the host, I am one with the body, etc." and for Rena to associate with the body. Once that has happened though, you should be good, just have Rena control the body to the best of her ability for a little while. It may feel like you, but when you first switch it's not always obvious what is and isn't you. Negative habits and lines of thinking could be universal, but that doesn't mean they can't be changed or manipulated.

 

The body's habits and the front are more malleable than they may appear to be. The front is like a cracked bucket of sand, where the sand represents the habits and procedures created over time and the falling sand is the stuff that gets forgotten over time. The current switched-in member adds sand as sand slowly leaks out from the bottom, new habits overwrite old habits and old habits are only held onto if you still follow them. If Rena switches in, she will be adding sand and slowly over time, changing out the sand that was originally in the bucket. Essentially, Rena will naturally introduce some new habits that are more personalized to her and over time, the body's habits will reflect more of Rena's behaviors. I believe it only takes a few months for the effect to be noticeable, and I think unpracticed habits unique to a host only sit around for maybe 2 or 3 years at most.

 

However, once switched-in, the front and the ability to change habits is a two way street. The front can influence your future behaviors and the behaviors of your headmates controlling the body, regardless of switching or possession. Rena may not be immune to some lines of thinking because they are deeply ingrained and require more work to untangle them. If she struggles with this, please don't panic. While Rena may have to face some of your challenges, she may have an easier time rejecting habits too. For example, there's a certain habit Cat has that isn't particularly healthy and I decided I want no part of it. While I do make the occasional mistake here and there, overall I don't act on that habit when switched-in while Cat continues to do so when she's switched-in.

 

---

 

30 minutes is a good start, but I have found I also sometimes need that long to stabilize too. I think you both have made some good progress, I recommend giving the experience a little bit longer to see if you notice anything else.

 

For longer switches, there is a small chance Rena will get switching fatigue like I did when I was learning how to be switched-in. If Rena starts to feel tired or exhausted after 30 min or an hour, let her switch out. If she doesn't, that's great! Keep going! I only bring this up because if Rena isn't super confident on her grip on the front, you may not be either. This will quickly go away with more practice.

 

There's also the off-hand possibility you can accidentally switch back in due to the switch being unstable. This is normal and easy to fix. To correct a switch, have Rena do affirmation "I am Rena, I'm supposed to be switched-in" and that will be enough to correct the switch.