Viceroy general

[TulpaCouple]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Measure_of_a_Man_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

 

All this debating sentience/what makes sentience/is killing a tulpa wrong is making me want to watch star trek. I always think of this episode when this comes up.

 

I guess the big thing is we can't prove sentience really. But I can't prove to you that I am sentient either, other than I am speaking to you and I say that I am. I could be a very well designed program, or I could even be tulpacouple's tulpa typing this, but though you could try to find evidence, nothing really could be proven. We know in general that a machine programmed to appear sentient generally seems a bit off, prewritten chats or immitated facial expressions never quite fool us. Is the mind simply a more powerful computer that can better fool us? But then, some simply would call our own sentience a series of advanced programs, so would a machine(mental or mechanical) at that level be truly sentient at that point? Is the fact that that a tulpa can have doubts, fears, or even question themselves and think about who and what they are proof that they are sentient, or is it all one big extremel believable hoax our mind has put us through to believe in their existence(doubts making them more believable, etc)?

 

Personally, I'd rather treat them as a sentient being. When he is sad because he has lost s friend or is frustrated at his own failures, it comes natural to want to comfort him and encourage him. Is there a chance that this is all a mental game and really I am just comforting a nonfeeling imagined concept of a person? I guess. It certainly doesn't feel that way, and my experiences with my and my fiance's tulpae really say otherwise. But really, even if it were the case, I don't feel bad about my actions. Through these experiences I have become closer to myself and learned more about my own morals, beliefs, and the motives behind them. He has pushed me and questioned me and I am forced to understand more about who I am and why I am. Not to mention, his desire to help others(be it really his desire or simply a parallel of my own thoughts) has gotten me out there, making better choices. Through loving him and caring for him, he has returned the love tenfold, sending me warm thoughts of encouragement, reminding me of his own confidence in me, and by being an ear to listen to my problems.

 

When going through the process, it's hard not to love them. First, often the love is like that of a creator who is fond of it's creation-an artist watching his masterpiece grow and become everything he imagined. But as the tulpa communicates, shows signs of sentience and life, and slowly grows in strength through your own dedication, the relationship changes. No longer is the tulpa a project, but a partner. He or she starts to ask you questions, forms his/her own ideas, and is able to converse with you on an equal level. As smart as my dog is, she is unable to communicate with me on an advanced level; I can't ask her about her opinions on religion, life, scientific theories, or discuss things on a conceptual level with her. It's hard for me to continue questioning my tulpa's individual intellect when he brings such unique and intelligent theories to the conversation. Eh.

 

I am pretty tired right now, my post might be all over the place, buy I guess there are my two cents.

[QB2]

My reaction is a similar one - I keep wanting to bring up the Doctor Who episode Human Nature, in which one of the characters is a tulpa The Doctor made, who has to face death at the end.

[cruse]

Viceroy, here's tulpa to computer program logic.

 

Tulpa is a program with sentience.

 

Servitor is just a program.

 

I'd dissipate servitor without hesitation once I have no need for it.

 

So yes, it's just like what you said, sentience.

[Viceroy]

Tulpacouple, you seem to have articulated your stance on the matter rather well. I do appreciate that. I did some reading as to the nature of sentience, its definition, and contemporary and scientific philosophy surrounding it. What you say about its impossibility to be measured appears to be true, at least currently.

 

The question of sentience certainly is an important matter. For if a tulpa is not truly sentient, it has no inherent right to be treated in any certain way; it is entirely at the discretion of the owner, same as a stack of bricks, or a computer program. Yet if it does possess true sentience, then it would seem it does have rights. It would be unprecedented, however, for a mere human to create anything with true sentience.

 

I phrase the question to you then, TC: Do you think there is a difference between a tulpa, and its host? If its easier to answer, A tulpa (secondary) consciousness and an original (primary) consciousness? Is a tulpa included as an aspect of YOU... or is it you, AND your tulpa, as independent aspects? Is there a point at which "you" stops and "your tulpa" begins?

 

This is all just so frustrating and confusing to me. I am determined to find the truth of the matter, however.

[Sands]

Hey, if you don't mind, I'll also try answering some of the questions that weren't directed to me in particular. Also this ended up being a wall of text and my r key is derp, so that would explain missing r letters if I have missed some.

 

But can't a tulpa take control of the body and themselves be bombarded by that stimuli? Alternatively, do they not also share sensory experiences with you?

 

They can and they can. Roswell often is feeling the world through me even when not in control, but he can also ignore the senses. I have also ignored them and guess I could learn to ignore them whenever I wished, seeing those people who switch when they please. A step in that is kinda learning how to ignore the senses of the body. The biggest difference here is that he was born not in control and I was, so I suppose he automatically can disconnect himself from the senses if he so wishes.

 

I never proposed not to treat a tulpa as though they weren't alive (for I have no air-tight definition of the term "life"); I proposed to treat them like a tulpa. My dog is alive, and I treat him like he's alive... but I don't treat him like a cat, or as a person, because he's not a cat, or a person; he's a dog. Different life beings need to be treated in different ways - what is healthy for one could actually damage another. We can look at a dog, and look at a human, and make an itemized list of all the differences between the two. Those differences serve to demonstrate, among other things, how one should treat that being for their- and your- best health.

 

This one is interesting. It is important that we can understand each other, no matter our species. I think in my case it's less like treating my cat like a cat and more about going to his level. I can't expect him to act like a human because he couldn't, what's inside his head is just too different. But in order to coexist, I have learned to more or less read what he tries to tell me and I try using signals that are cat-like enough for him to understand naturally.

 

A tulpa acts like a human and understands you like a human. Human might be a silly word here depending on how you feel, I'll talk about that later, but in that way you don't have to "go to their level", because you are on the same level. Like another person you treat like another person. You can replace "human" earlier on there with person, if you wish.

 

Of course, there is no proof. I don't think there's exactly proof of what or who we are either, but Tulpacouple talked about that enough already. You don't have to believe what I say, but this is something I have experienced so I base my assumptions on those. They might be wrong, but to me, that's how they seem. Hope you understand my reasons.

 

Give an example of something that is a part of you, then. Your thoughts? Your emotions? Your tulpa? All of these are things just as your arms, your car, and your friends are also things. If you consider the former category to include things which are a part of your identity but the latter category not, I would be very interested in knowing your explanation why.

 

There are many things that are included in that "things" there and many that aren't. I think that they are not a part of me if they can be removed without changing who I am. So objects can be removed and they won't change me, people can be removed and that won't have an immediate effect but of course it would later on because you know, we are people and all. Social creatures. But if I went removing my feelings or emotions or other personality traits, I doubt I would exactly be me anymore because I lack what makes me myself. Does that make any sense?

 

Removing my tulpa would affect me like removing other people from my life, though of course we are really close friends so it would be a shock. However, it wouldn't change my core radically, so I don't see Roswell as a part of me.

 

So for a Tulpa who is dying and doesn't want to, it's like "oh snap im being willed out of existence, better go bug this guy or convince him there's a reason to keep me around, because I depend entirely on his goodwill to continue living."

 

Neither of us has experienced being tried to kill like that, so we can't talk about this subject like we can talk about the others. So everything I say now is based on the stories of others and assumptions which I am pulling out of my ass.

 

Like I said, a tulpa actually dying or being killed is pretty unheard of. The only story I have heard where a tulpa has completely disappeared was when they themselves decided to leave and left, never to be found again. The stories where someone and their tulpa have decided it's better to kill them have usually ended up with the host finding them again, still alive.

 

Assuming that a tulpa can be killed and you are doing it against their will, yes, it would be difficult because they would keep bugging you. I suppose you can learn how to ignore them if you are heartless, but thinking about this only brought another thing to my mind. Say that Roswell is in the body and decides to stat ignoring me. He is the only person who can hear me and talk to me, if he refuses to do so or let me talk to others, I'm stuck. Let's say he also has a stong grip of the controls and I am unable to get them back, truly making me stuck and ignored. No one would know about me and the only one who does ignores me. I could try and try, but eventually I would have to give up. Now I am alone and I can't escape. I would try to find a way to kill myself or at least hibernate forever so I don't have to live with it.

 

But yeah just pulling shit out of my ass here, we can't really talk about this with experience. I don't think we want to play with potential death just to test things out, sorry man.

 

("Murder" is when one human kills another human. Dissipating a tulpa isn't murder; it may arguably be tantamount to murder, but murder it is not. Call it dissipating, for that is a term we can all agree on.)

 

Would you consider dissipating a tulpa to be tantamount to taking the life from another human? Do you think one should have the right to dissipate their tulpa any time they want to, for any reason? These questions are directed to anyone.

 

Lots of italics there.

 

Well, let's see. What do you think is a human or a life? I hope you understand that I can't exactly see the body and myself the same after all this, so what I will follow this with follows that school of thought.

 

Humans are a species of animal. The body is that. The mind is what makes us act like how humans usually do, but one who isn't taught to live like a human doesn't do so. So there's two different kinds of meanings for the word human, I guess. The body is always a human when it is a human. Killing that is what you say is murder and that would be correct. That is what is murder to the law as well. Up to you if you think killing another human mind against their will is murder. I think it is some kind of murder, but different murder from body murder.

 

Life also could mean either the living body obviously, but I can't say I would exactly see myself alive (of course I couldn't see it anyways because I wouldn't be) if for some reason my mind died in whatever way it could but the body stayed behind.

 

You don't have the right to kill another being that acts and thinks like a human in every way it matters. You started this, if you know you can't do it, it is something you should talk about together for a mercy kill. Tuppers understand your reasons, but some might be very afraid of dying despite your reasons, just like you. Would it be right to kill them when they don't want to and they are afraid? You couldn't get into trouble if you did it. You would just know that you killed someone who just really wanted to live.

 

Anyways, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, your questions are good and at least I like answering them. I don't have all the answers and I have nothing but what I have seen myself, but hope they're enough or something.

[SSaint]

Of course nobody knows exactly what a tulpa is, but I speculate that a person with a tulpa has a mind something like a hydra. The mind itself is shared, acting as a body. The identities of the host and the tulpa are like heads. So they are separate, but also tied together.

 

As far as sentience, goes, I think a tulpa is highly sentient. I consider sentience to be the complexity with which something is able to respond to various stimuli. A tulpa is equal to a human in this regard, so they are equally sentient.