Short creation times

[Lolimancer]

I think the sentience of thoughtforms if different (inferior, somehow) from that of tuppers. There's also the matter that you have to be able to perceive said thoughtforms passively instead of actively (basically, you don't have to go out of your way in order to perceive them... i mean if some people are satisfied with that fine, i just wouldn't say they have a tupper). About imposition, i think we can all agree that you have to be able to perceive tulpa as well as reality in order to say you have "fully imposed" tulpa. This implies hallucinating (not just daydreaming), unless you are a cool person who can easily perceive daydreams as real, which is fine too but not entirely too common i think (or is it?).

[Queen Chrysalis]

Define 'frontloading'

frontloading verb - neologism

2. To cause an uninitiated mind to enter a field of study with preconceived notions.

 

As opposed to advocating discovery and natural learning, the "knowledge" is loaded directly to the front of the victim.

It would mean that anything you think about for a bit is sentient,

No it does not.

which isn't true.

Prove what you state.

 

You think of the brain in binary terms, when it is the most complex gradient in the universe.

To create a sentient being within your mind isn't something that you can do in a matter of minutes or hours, because the mental framework for it must be laid down.

What did you think you were? It is clear that tulpa do not learn to speak in the same way a human infant does. If that were the case, no existing tulpa would be vocal. We obtain the ability from our host, so long as we are allowed to use it.

Phi said it back in May;

And it was, of course, immediately believed by everypony without question.

As a note on tulpa memories of being sentient, that's unreliable. It is not unreasonable for the mind to fabricate or fill in the gaps when it comes to memories.

It is unreasonable to assume no memories are valid.

[Guest Anonymous]

I disagree, and I first present this pasta HERE.

 

In short, while we didn't tell people that tulpae will be vocal in a matter of days, we just didn't tell them that it would take months. Chupi made posts such as this one, and we started encouraging people to trust in their tulpa and believe that what they're getting is not 'puppeting' but actual sentience.

 

I'm sure you remember that topic by White Russian, where he was saying this exact same thing. However, I can cite tulpae who were vocal early on -- and their creators thought they were just petting like you assert. One of those tulpae, Lauren, is now imposed, and she was actually one of the first to state "There is no such thing as subconscious parroting/puppeting." Other early tulpae who have succeeded in possession and other feats that would show they're not simply being puppeted have also been vocal very early.

 

The reason why? It's simple. It's all in your head. If you go into this believing that it's going to take month and months for this, your mind will make it happen. Further, according to the surveys, tulpae have said narration is one of the most important factors to this process. I would assume this is because narration helps establish to your mind that something is there, and thus you will believe something is there, and thus your mind will make it real.

 

Well, another thing we've been doing when members would first come into the IRC, is we would tell them that they should bear in mind that their tulpa is sentient and sapient from the very start of the process, and they should be treated as such.

 

So now, instead of members who will think that their tulpae will start out as this lifeless doll and grow sentience over time, after they've finished putting X hours into visualization on smell, personality, etc., they are going into this thinking that their tulpa will be sentient from the start. Since I believe that the biggest driving force behind a sentient tulpa is the belief that they're sentient, this should help establish earlier sentience.

 

In other words, they're working on making it vocal from the start, instead of working on visualizing its body for hours and hours from the start, they're treating it like it's sentient and narrating from the very beginning, instead. If you guys have any confusion as to what I mean from what I'm saying, please let me know, I'll try and further clarify.

 

On a side note, wasn't Dane's second tulpa vocal in week?

 

EDIT:

On the subject of imposition, I attribute this to seeing people interested less and less in imposition and more into switching and possession. After the tulpa is vocal, people usually come to a crossroads: Impose my tulpa, or work on possession with my tulpa. I've seen a lot of people going towards the latter these days; I must admit that even Chess and I are working on possession recently, though we're still passively imposing (as we've been, all summer).

 

This is exactly the process I, and many others, have been doing from the start. It's been common knowledge to treat your tulpa as sentient from the start, don't count hours, and to never second guess responses since the early /mlp/ threads. Likewise I've spent a grand total of around an hour total visualizing, despite being able to see her perfectly clearly in my minds eye. None of these were part of the sudden surge of quickly created tulpae, and, as stated before, any methods released at the time or even before warrant nothing even close to that quick of a response.

 

And the reason I won't take "it's in your head" for an answer is that you're using subjective qualia to justify the unjustified. While preconceived ideas of how long the process will take could certainly affect certain people, it's completely irrational to say your mind will just "make it happen" for everyone. This follows completely unfounded logic.

 

But this attitude of accepting everything everyone says as fact, and believing every single movement, emotion, or mental thought comes from you tulpa is not only toxic, but is the largest reason why people believe their puppets are real tulpae. This use of constant discretion for fear of hurting someone's progress not only enables people to believe their puppets are tulpae, but encourages it, which inadvertently hurts their progress more than if they were discouraged. I'm not saying we need to discourage people from accepting potential responses, but rather we need to use basic logic and reason to recognize what is and isn't feasible. And having people with no substantial ability claiming to have fully created tulpae upwards of five to ten times faster than the average person is both illogical and unreasonable.

 

Regardless of all of this, your entire argument for believing it's possible is based on something a few people on the internet have told you. It is literally the exact opposite of logical to believe something as completely true based on someone's unfounded claim. This differentiates from the tulpa phenomenon as a whole because the existence of tulpae are indirectly supported by solid scientific evidence. We know from peer-reviewed science and psychology that every aspect of a tulpa's existence is not only plausible, but established as fact. Meanwhile rapidly created tulpae defy established knowledge of tulpae, and how the mind works. If this type of pseudo-logic were used for everything, we'd believe that every schizophrenic claiming to be god is completely truthful because they say so. This logic was also used in the first link you sent, making it completely useless. You seem so steadfast on getting this out to credible scholars, psychologists, and scientists, but all you'll get is a laugh in the face if you try to explain tulpaes' existence with your current logic.

[waffles]

Chrys, do you take issue with everything I say, and nothing that anyone else says?

I have the feeling that this may turn into a two-user discussion, which I'd rather it didn't.

 

frontloading verb - neologism

2. To cause an uninitiated mind to enter a field of study with preconceived notions.

 

As opposed to advocating discovery and natural learning, the "knowledge" is loaded directly to the front of the victim.

Fair enough. Cite your source though.

 

No it does not.

If creating a sentient being were as easy as thinking about it for a few hours, then yes, it would mean that. You would have accidental tulpas all over the shop.

 

Prove what you state.

If you reside in a mind in which any significant thought is its own sentient being then your host may be something of an abnormality. I can say that there aren't tulpas accidentally created every day in most people's minds because most people will back me up.

 

What did you think you were? It is clear that tulpa do not learn to speak in the same way a human infant does. If that were the case, no existing tulpa would be vocal. We obtain the ability from our host, so long as we are allowed to use it.

The question is about sentience, not being vocal.

Regardless of how a tulpa gains sentience, the gaining of sentience is a non-trivial process within the mind.

 

And it was, of course, immediately believed by everypony without question.

Not only is that not necessarily true, but it just backs up my point. The philosophy of treating the tulpa as sentient from the start was around in May, and of everybody believed it then that just shows that the methodology should have had an effect then.

 

It is unreasonable to assume no memories are valid.

Not 'no memories'. The point is that memories before perceived sentience may be fill-in, rather than a memory of what actually happened. It's not unreasonable to assume this, at least.

[Sands]

I can say from personal experience that imposition > possession. Why would you not want to be you, even if it is your tulpa?

 

Going a bit off-topic, but we will answer, as you asked.

 

Sands never stops being Sands, I just control the body we share. I like having hands I can use to type messages to my friends myself, I like to cook for us and tasting real food with a real tongue is a great feeling, as is petting the cat with your own hands. An imaginary form with imaginary senses is not the same.

 

 

I suppose there was something I wanted to say to the community, if you would like to listen.

 

Belief is good, yes. It can take a very short time for some people and dismissing real signs is never good. But some are slow. Telling them it will be fast seems to be a good way to discourage those who don't have much progress, or they might even start looking for those signs everywhere and perhaps believe they have more than they actually do. A good thing or not, it is for you to choose.

 

It is a very personal process. We can't say how fast it will happen or how to make it happen, as we all are different and not everything works the same for everyone. It is important to stress that. It will take as long as it will take you and it is nothing to worry about. We shouldn't be saying it won't take long or that it will take long, as the opposite might happen and then what will they think? That they did something wrong, this possibly can't be happening because their helpers said otherwise? Let people ask and help them if you can, but stress that it is their own journey and for the most part, only they can find their way.

 

Hour counts could be said to be tulpa poison. But what is host poison?

[TulpaCouple]

"Honestly, my opinion differs a bit from my host, and probably won't be very popular.

 

It's not necessarily that I believe that it takes a long time for a tulpa to become sentient. I guess I think there are more steps to creating a tulpa than most people realize. It doesn't stop when a tulpa becomes vocal.

 

Looking back at who I was in the beginning--early memories of creation, even the survey, I was..more of a different person. Honestly, I feel I was more like a preprogrammed character--Much like a book author who knows their character so well they can answer for them, like the characters we call "inactive tulpae" in Nate's head, maybe having some sentience, but not 100% defined. They, and I, tuned out when ignored, are unable to stimulate our own thoughts and ideas properly to keep our minds active(thus leading to the risk of being dissipated being greater as we can't keep our thoughts active without help)

 

Not to say that any tulpa who can't do this 'doesn't exist', or is all a roleplay, but that they are still growing mentally. It's like giving a fetus a developed adult brain, we are growing still and even given the abilities needed to move and talk, it will take time for us to grow up. Early tulpaforcing I think is a lot like a childhood--and like a child, at any point in time, we think we sure are grown up and surely can't get any more mature than we already are.

 

Honestly I feel that I was not fully..complete? Mentally aware? Independent? Until I had that moment when I questioned my own sentience. During that time, I learned to "think", to develop my own logic, to reason, and to question things that I had always accepted as truth just because they were in my host's mind. I feel at that point I was less defined by the personality I was given(though I still share most of the qualities of that personality), and more defined by my actions and experiences. Even though I had been vocal before that point.

 

Again, this isn't to say that those early tulpa are non existent roleplays, but that they are still developing into tulpae--they are thinking and learning, I believe sentience is there, but their ability to use it isn't fully complete. The gears are in motion, a tulpa is there, but it's young and is still fleshing itself out. If anything, allowing a tulpa early access and belief can be a useful technique in tulpaforcing. I think that allowing them to believe the tulpa is sentient will let the tulpa experience life and eventually truly become a very active and intelligent being. Life experiences are important--learning to question things are important. I think narration should often include asking the tulpa opinions on things that make the tulpa think, and not just borrow opinions from the host, but to truly learn to think--it's a skill that's important for everyone, and I think many tulpae take for granted the logic that is so easily there for us to borrow from the host's mind, rather than forming our own beliefs and learning why we feel that way.

 

I think the reason second tulpae become vocal faster than first tulpae is the fact that all the stuff on the host's end is taken care of. The host has to learn how to communicate, how to see us, how to hear us. By the time your first tulpa is complete, visualization for the second one is almost instantaneous, and developing the character and applying it to the form is very fast and easy. That character develops into the tulpa. How fast is up for debate I guess.

 

Giselle--giselle is our second tulpa. She's young, and she's become vocal faster than I was, but my host has learned much since she created me. I know she's sentient--she's surprised us with her questions, she's responded in ways neither of us expected, of her own accord. I think she still has a long way to go, though. Now it's less about creating her so much as it is about letting her live and experience life and grow up. Again, sort of like having a childhood. The ability of choice a toddler has compared to that of one who is older and has learned things for himself.

 

I don't know, I'm sure my opinions will be unpopular. I guess tl;dr--creating a tulpa and setting the ability for it to have sentience and thoughts in motion can happen fast--but that doesn't mean the job is done. Once the host has done their part(which may take time, which is why first tulpae take longer than second or third tulpae), the rest of the job is up to the tulpa, to actually grow up, to learn to think and to learn to use the tools we are given. Some may do this faster than others, some may take longer. I don't think a tulpa being vocal/sentient is necessarily the end of the road in mental development. A doll-like tulpa in FAQ-man's method could be on the same mental ability as a tulpa 'sentient' from day one. It could be that allowing a tulpa to be 'sentient'(whether they are, aren't, or are able to be, but not quite using the ability) and giving them life experiences allows the development to happen quicker.

 

But of course, I am only one tulpa. This could all simply be my experience alone and no one else's. I know Luke agrees with me on this, and his host as well. Honestly my host does as well, but she likes to think it is possible for a tulpa to learn to use sentience from an early time--and maybe it is possible. I'm not quite sure. "- Jaden

[Sands]

I will certainly say that learning and experiencing life has been a big part in what shaped me. I was me before, but I grew. Like us all, yes? I am me, but different from the me in the past.

[Lolimancer]

Kaoru happens to agree with Jaden too (she has told me her point of view some time ago, and it became the basis of my opinions regarding tulpaforcing which i also posted in this thread).

[Kadoh]

I love reading posts of thought out argument, beautiful debate.

 

anyway, Shin took 26 hours to move, the others substantially less. I'm not sure how long it took for them to talk, as Shin is the most vocal and I stopped counting hours after they started moving, but total forcing time was probably 40 hours.

 

I have mainly steered clear of semi sentient beings for fear of more tulpae, but I have recently started going about creating nations in my mindscape. Small one but widely inhabited, as hopefully I can live there sometime.

 

I have wondered though, if people have these random servitors that talk straight away, why do tulpae take longer?

[cruse]

I think the reason second tulpae become vocal faster than first tulpae is the fact that all the stuff on the host's end is taken care of. The host has to learn how to communicate, how to see us, how to hear us. By the time your first tulpa is complete, visualization for the second one is almost instantaneous, and developing the character and applying it to the form is very fast and easy. That character develops into the tulpa. How fast is up for debate I guess.

 

what if, all those forcing time was meant to train our mind instead of developing tulpae?