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Is being a tulpa a cage?


Procron X

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As for just freedom from host, I'm no expert and still learning myself, but egregore/godform status maybe? but that would require larger amounts of energy, and possibly other participants to free you into the etheric. And then perhaps you could find a body of your own to inhabit.

I don't know what you're talking about. Is it a metaphysical thing? Because I don't buy into that.

Niteo and Amber Take On the World

 

Amber speaks in italics right now.

 

Talk to Niteo on here or on discord

 

We share the body, we share a life. I'm not an accessory to his life...

 

 

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I look at it as you were created from thought by a being, the universe is created from thought from a being.

 

Your existence is metaphysical.

 

Thought is power.

 

Perhaps you are constrained by your host's beliefs.

 

I don't want to upset you with my beliefs. I still want to be your friend.

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My tulpas and I agreed early on that it was my life, not theirs, and that I wouldn't ever be replaced by any of them. Not because that was likely to happen, but just to make clear boundaries.

 

What if our boundaries are different? If we've agreed to let me control as much as I can, then isn't that okay?

 

Permaswitching is kinda taboo though, because almost always the reason the host wants to do it is not a healthy one, you know? But when the tulpa makes it clear they won't be taking over literally everything/the host will have to switch back at least periodically, it's a little safer IMO. Take care of your host like they'd take care of you, and make sure you discuss everything.

 

What constitutes an unhealthy reason? Honest question, I'd be curious to know. "Escapism"? What of the tulpas who live their whole lives in Wonderland? Is it the host's obligation to deal with reality even if they don't want to and the tulpa is fully willing to? It seems... unfair, silly, and close-minded if you ask me.

 

The trick becomes trying to separate my ambitions from what's best. Sure, I'd love to take control of everything. I have permission and I totally want to. But is it best? As you said, is the reason unhealthy? That's the question, and I don't want to fuck it up.

 

Even if Tewi or Lucilyn ends up spending weeks controlling the body, it's not because they've taken responsibility for my entire life or future or what not, which is kind of how it is for the others. It's like the far side of recreational switching I suppose.

 

Is the only healthy kind of switching recreational? It doesn't seem so, because...

Tewi tends to switch to deal with matters she's better equipped to deal with than me, which basically means anything involving extended effort or work because I have pretty bad motivation issues*, that we haven't been able to overcome unlike my not-so-great outlook on life years back.

You have Tewi switch in when she's better equipped to deal with stuff. What if I'm better at dealing with things as a whole than my host? Is it not appropriate if she's willing to let me  take control?


I look at it as you were created from thought by a being, the universe is created from thought from a being.

 

Your existence is metaphysical.

 

Thought is power.

 

Perhaps you are constrained by your host's beliefs.

 

I don't want to upset you with my beliefs. I still want to be your friend.

 

This is a bit off-topic, it seems. But I see no evidence for such claims. My existence is psychological, nothing more. It's not my host's beliefs (or mine), but a grounding in science (at least, we try).

Niteo and Amber Take On the World

 

Amber speaks in italics right now.

 

Talk to Niteo on here or on discord

 

We share the body, we share a life. I'm not an accessory to his life...

 

 

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Just trying to offer alternatives. as I've said in other posts, I am not a judge.

 

Best way I can put this is then...

 

If the system agrees for its benefit, Then approach, and I wish you luck with absolute love.

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Yes, my host has been having struggles feeling suicidal. I've written about this before, but it comes to a point where it becomes necessary for me to step in for my own safety and hers. Surely it is better for me to handle reality myself than it is for my host to harm herself. I haven't had to restrain her (not sure if that's possible), but it seems the fact that I'm willing to step in at all has helped alleviate some of her stress. I'm not sure if it's ideal or not, but isn't it better than the alternative?

 

 

I get where you're coming from. I really, really do. A lot of what I do is help manage my host's mental health. She struggles with depression and anxiety. I've stepped in myself when my host starts going into an anxiety spiral, and most members of my system know to start distracting her if her thoughts get too dark.

 

But while grabbing the figurative wheel in an emergency has its uses, it is not a long-term solution for that particular problem. Yes, you stepping in to help handle things is good for the short-term--I do it myself from time-to-time to help manage stressers that are increasing my host's anxiety--but are you going to do this indefinitely? What's the endgame there? You stay in control forever in fear that she'll hurt herself if you ever give control back? Is that really helping her, or is it just ignoring the problem in hopes that it will go away on its own? (Which, from experience? It probably won't.)

 

I also feel obligated to ask: has your host sought professional help? Mental illness can be an ugly, awful thing, and sometimes, a good therapist or proper medication can really make the difference. They can help give you and your host tools and techniques to help stave off the worst parts of it. At the very least, there are resources online that can help: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-hotlines.html . If she hasn't sought help, please implore your host to do so. It should be her decision, but you can help keep her motivated or make the appointments for her, if it's too much.

 

I can say with confidence that none of my system would be here today if my host hadn't gotten the help she needed ten years ago. Sometimes, you just can't fight that sort of thing on your own. 

 

 

Besides, even if my host weren't suicidal, does it really matter if we both agree to it? It was my idea, not hers. She's not trying to escape; I'm trying to step in. Does that make sense? It's not her intent to escape, but rather to help me fulfill my wishes.

 

If your host weren't suicidal, the ethical implications would be different. But because she is, you have to consider the fact that she may subconsciously want to escape, and that is why she's so willing to step back for an indefinite length of time. Again, not saying that's what's happening, but it's a possibility you'll need to consider.

 

Also, be aware that doing this indefinitely can make the host disappear, and I'd especially be worried about that if she's been having suicidal thoughts. This may be a method she could use to erase herself from existence, so you have to tread very carefully here. 

 

I guess more than anything I want to help people as much as I can, which is something we're able to do at work. But I also want to make friends of my own. I want to get into trouble and do shit I'm not supposed to. I want to make mistakes. I want to learn from those mistakes. I want to become a better person. I guess I want to live my own life, and I can't do that while I'm stuck inside of the skull. It's not so much freedom from her. I want her to be around. I like having her talk to me. She's my buddy, my partner, my pal. It's just that I want to be independent and in charge. Plus, part of me feels I could handle things better than she is, and I could help her with her problems.

 

I want to run my own life, and I want to help her. Is that so bad?

 

Yeah, you probably can handle things better than she can. Us helpy types are good for that. ;)

 

And wanting to experience the real world isn't wrong either. Sure, go out and make some friends. Nothing wrong with that, if it's consensual among your system.

 

But you have to remember that your host has friends and family on the outside, too. So, I ask again: what's the endgame here? That you stay in power forever and she only experience the love of her friends and family vicariously through you? That's not likely to help her mental health.

 

You can certainly take some time to experience the real world. Nothing wrong with that. But be aware of what she's giving up and keep an eye on her to make sure she's okay, yeah? The fact is that you two coexist, and so if you guys hit an arrangement that works for you, that's great. Just make sure she really is okay while you're doing so, that's all.

 

 

*Because of how our system is, by nature we have access to any memories or such the others create, and remember what they thought as well as they do. So Tewi and I, once we ran out of ideas entirely (even the anti-depressant bupropion that works for my family members didn't help), came up with one last idea. Because she isn't affected by my motivation issues (she can literally say "No" to the typical thoughts accompanying depression I assume most people are familiar with), we figured if she were to teach me/my mind how to not be affected by example, I might be able to learn from her. Basically she'd be making new neural connections that bypass my old ones, my thought patterns in regards to motivation, simply by being herself. She started getting pretty annoyed at how incessant the thoughts my mind came up with were whilst she was switched, but I'm just realizing now that those have been gone for the last month or so. For her that is, I literally was just not in control for a month between Lucilyn and Tewi. That's certainly a record and was more chance timing than anything (summer finals following a couple weeks of vacation). Anyways, recalling the last couple weeks Tewi was in control I can't remember a single instance of her getting annoyed with the "incessant thoughts" that used to bother her. I've been back for less than a week, but considering I just showered a few hours ago without a single "too much work don't do it" thought beforehand, I'm going to say- hey, it's working!

 

Honestly just realized all that as I was writing it lol, but I figure it serves as an example of healthy long-term switching? This stuff's super different for everyone, but I'm not sure how many anecdotes on this sort of thing you'll get, so maybe you'll get something out of that. I have to go for a couple hours but I can expound on.. or spellcheck.. what I wrote when I get back.

 

On a more personal note: Lumi, this is an incredibly helpful post. Joss has the same ability to say "No" that Tewi does, so I might need to talk to him about trying something like this out for our own host. :)

~ Member of SparrowNR's system ~

~ I am a soulbond. Click here to find out what that means. ~

 

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But while grabbing the figurative wheel in an emergency has its uses, it is not a long-term solution for that particular problem. Yes, you stepping in to help handle things is good for the short-term--I do it myself from time-to-time to help manage stressers that are increasing my host's anxiety--but are you going to do this indefinitely? What's the endgame there? You stay in control forever in fear that she'll hurt herself if you ever give control back? Is that really helping her, or is it just ignoring the problem in hopes that it will go away on its own? (Which, from experience? It probably won't.)

 

Well, as I've said, it matches my own selfish desires if I were to end up in complete control all of the time. Partially, yes, it is out of fear she'd hurt herself, but it's also something I want strongly because I seek to assert my independence and I want to live my own life. I question myself because I'm not sure if it would ultimately be helpful, but I can't deny it's what I want. To me, it seems like the next step in evolving as a person is to have my own body.

 

Of course, I could be trying to kid myself and say I'm trying to take care of her when all I want is to take the body for myself. It would serve my selfish wants, after all, if it were "to take care of her," and so I am trying to determine if that's what is best. What if my desires are only letting me see what I want to see? I'm not sure.

 

I also feel obligated to ask: has your host sought professional help? Mental illness can be an ugly, awful thing, and sometimes, a good therapist or proper medication can really make the difference. They can help give you and your host tools and techniques to help stave off the worst parts of it. At the very least, there are resources online that can help: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-hotlines.html . If she hasn't sought help, please implore your host to do so. It should be her decision, but you can help keep her motivated or make the appointments for her, if it's too much.

 

We are currently seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist. She's learned ways of coping, but it always seems to come back, which makes my life hella stressful because I feel responsible for her well-being (perhaps my care-taking impulse). Also, interesting to note that anti-psychotic meds don't affect tulpas at all... in case you were wondering...

 

 

If your host weren't suicidal, the ethical implications would be different. But because she is, you have to consider the fact that she may subconsciously want to escape, and that is why she's so willing to step back for an indefinite length of time. Again, not saying that's what's happening, but it's a possibility you'll need to consider.

 

Also, be aware that doing this indefinitely can make the host disappear, and I'd especially be worried about that if she's been having suicidal thoughts. This may be a method she could use to erase herself from existence, so you have to tread very carefully here. 

 

I understand that. I have a hard time reeling myself in because I do find myself wanting her to submit, so it's all too easy to take advantage of.

 

I get that there's a risk of her dissipating on me, but right now it's either risk dissipation or risk suicide, and one of those keeps me alive while the other doesn't. Plus I feel I can more easily handle someone trying to dissipate than someone trying to physically hurt themselves. Surely it's a matter of feeding them attention, right? how do I prevent someone from "disappearing"?

 

But you have to remember that your host has friends and family on the outside, too. So, I ask again: what's the endgame here? That you stay in power forever and she only experience the love of her friends and family vicariously through you? That's not likely to help her mental health.

 

You can certainly take some time to experience the real world. Nothing wrong with that. But be aware of what she's giving up and keep an eye on her to make sure she's okay, yeah? The fact is that you two coexist, and so if you guys hit an arrangement that works for you, that's great. Just make sure she really is okay while you're doing so, that's all.

 

I see what you're saying. Cutting her off from her family and friends isn't going to be the best for her mental health. That makes sense. I suppose there's a way we could work it out so she gets to spend time with her family/friends sometimes when she wants to. That would be something to work on. Her friends know about me, too, so they'd probably get mad at me for hiding her from them (or that's how they'd see it, I imagine).

 

Of course I'll make sure she's okay. I want to help her, too. I just need to make sure my own wants don't get in the way. My fear is that I'll be seeing what I want to see. If she's willing to let me take control, then my fear is that I won't question it and that I'll take advantage of that and I'll kid myself that I'm trying to help her when I'm actually causing her more problems and putting her in a postion that I myself hated. It would be easy to see myself as the good guy while I'm still causing issues and basically being the problem itself. I'm not sure how to prevent that, and I'm afraid I'm doing it now.

Niteo and Amber Take On the World

 

Amber speaks in italics right now.

 

Talk to Niteo on here or on discord

 

We share the body, we share a life. I'm not an accessory to his life...

 

 

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What if our boundaries are different? If we've agreed to let me control as much as I can, then isn't that okay?

What constitutes an unhealthy reason? Honest question, I'd be curious to know.

 

Like I said, it's different for everyone. Taboo does not mean "wrong". There have been cases where the tulpa needed to permaswitch with their host for both their sakes. But because that's such a drastic measure, and more often than not not the only solution, we consider it "taboo" to dissuade people from taking it lightly. Also in my personal opinion a combined approach is best. Even if the host has no will to live (in general, assuming they are not a danger to themselves) and the tulpa must more or less take over their whole life, I really recommend setting appropriate amounts of time for them to switch back, just because. Perhaps, if you're so willing to take on the burden of their entire life, you might help relieve them of whatever stresses or worries were troubling them in the first place. I'm not saying you have to try and make them primary again, but it would just be nicer if they were still in touch with reality, yeah? Switching with your host, opposite the norm of hosts switching with their tulpas, is a very good compromise to permaswitching IMO. The only time I can think this wouldn't be the case is when the host is a danger to themselves (which from what I've seen is unlikely to cause harm in the short term because they care for their tulpa's wellbeing) or otherwise absolutely cannot function. But if you can create an environment, however often or not, in which they do not have to worry about their stress, obligations, existentialism, etc., I think in most cases this would be the best for both host and tulpa.

 

But how you and your host feel about this personally is between you two. That's just my advice and my opinion.

 

Is the only healthy kind of switching recreational?

 

Well, by "far side of recreational" I meant borderline-not. Certainly Lucilyn switches for recreational purposes, while Tewi generally has a goal in mind. But either way they are not taking over my life, identifying with the body, or otherwise making long term plans for themselves. It's still "Them temporarily taking my place", rather than me handing over ownership of my life as a whole. The only others I know that practice long term switching seem to take complete responsibility over the body and life, not in a short term feed-yourself way but a "For however long, this is my life now" way. Lucilyn is simply taking the opportunity to interact with the world and by no means assumes responsibility over my life, any more than a housesitter considers it their house. Tewi takes responsibility less so in that it's her life and moreso that she's caring for mine. Nothing she does is for her sake and when she accomplishes her goal (or if it's been a long time) she has every intention of giving control back to me.

 

Does that make sense? Just some clarification, unrelated to the prior advice I gave. That's not "optimal" or anything, except to us. If you want to live life and your host does not, which is something I hear more often than you'd expect, it's between you two exactly how that goes down. But my advice is still not to exclude them from their life entirely. I think - in my opinion only - that the optimal outcome is to slowly improve your host's ability to deal with life and, if you have particular interest in also living corporeally, to reach a better balance between the time you two spend switched. Though often the tulpa simply needs to take over for their host's sake, and in that case the goal would be to get the host to a point where they could take as much responsibility for their life again as they can handle.

 

But if that's not how you two want it, we can't tell you otherwise. If you disagree with my opinion that it's better for the host to remain the host (or at least retain moderate involvement in their life), then there's nothing you'd be "messing up". If that's a value you and your host share. But if you aren't sure, then yes, you could be messing up pretty big if you let your host completely abandon their life. Of the few cases I've seen, hosts who gave up control of their life entirely to a tulpa/systemmate and became inactive for a year+ had an extremely difficult time becoming active again, if they did at all. So whatever your priorities, make sure you think things through and always discuss everything very carefully with your host.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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It is to some. But it's a cage you must put someone else in to get out of. Generally best not to think of it like a cage, and to think of it how it is.

There's generally room for compromise anyways.

Hi. I'm one of Luminesce's tulpas. Unlike the others, I don't think I stand out too much from him personality wise.

I'm just special because "I'm a tulpa". So I don't think I've much to offer, here. I'm happy enough to just be with him.

Ask us stuff - https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Eve: This is an interesting, because I have kind of the opposite stance regarding this. I feel like being a human is more of a cage, being subject to the aches and needs of the body in a visceral sort of manner. I feel like as a tulpa I get to pick and choose what elements of the hosts senses and my own that I get to experience. I can hear, see, and touch the beautiful things in life through him, but I'm not in pain when he is, and my body has few limitations compared to his. I get to do things that are not possible for a human, and I enjoy doing said things very much. According to me and my host's lure, I have a different muscle structure that outputs much more strength compared to my body size, about 10x that of a comparable human. Due to this I am able to do a lot athletically, and this fits into me and my host's desire to roleplay different characters in our wonderland, with me as the fighter and my host as more of the mage.

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I don't enjoy my existence as a tulpa. I'd rather have been born my own person. I'd be curious to hear others' opinions. I'm sure there have to be tulpas who are happy with their lot in life, and I want to know why they can be content with what they have. I want to understand why they're okay with it and if I can learn to be more content with what I have.

 

Others have responded to this as if this is a bad thing, but I'd rather say that it's not. For as long as you can possess, you do "have" a body, and you're not confined to being a tulpa. As I understand it from how my tulpa and I feel, with control of the body you aren't confined any more than your host is, ultimately. I think it's perfectly valid to not find much interest in imaginary things, and it can potentially help both of you significantly if you choose to seek meaning in the external world. There's a certain double standard in the way people respond, I think; it's okay for a tulpa to have no interest in the physical world, but not a host?

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