Lance's Head, the Thread

[Guest LanceReilyn]

I know I've barely started this but it's going pretty slowly. I've already noticed an almost imperceptible disbelief just built into me to counter dissociative suggestions. Every moment I feel, I see, I exist, there is an underlying "this is me" going on. So far, no matter how many times in a day I either insist this body isn't "me", it's shared space with two different people in it, or I insist that Reilyn is living in the body and I'm living in the mind, there is a natural and incredible resistance. One such way is it just seems silly. Looking at this body in a mirror and saying "this flesh isn't the real me" just has a natural "phh yeah right" almost immediately counter it. For every time I pat myself on the back for churning out another hundred phrases suggesting disassociation, there are a natural thousand contradicting me. Long story short, I just don't believe it.

 

For her part, Reilyn is being very patient but a lot of the time we used to spend trying to visualize ourselves running around doing stuff, cuddling or other such bonding experiences has largely been replaced with trying to visualize us being separated, us being in different locations, her trying to "push" me out of the body or cut some kind of strings connecting me to it (at my request, of course) as well as keeping the time I'm the primary one at front to bare minimum. I have such a strong association with this body that whenever anyone ever comes up to talk or I want to greet someone at a distance or anything really that hasn't been specifically planned for or prepared against, I automatically shove her to the co-pilot seat and assume primary control. When the moment passes, I sort of fade back to co-pilot again as she steps up, rather annoyed and chiding me for not sticking to my own plan.

 

It's all got me torn between trying to stick to the plan and taking breaks from it to make time for us to enjoy being together. I'm afraid that by "taking breaks" I'm essentially loosing whatever progress I've been making but by not taking breaks I'm just making both of us a little more miserable. It's like I just decided to convince myself that my skin is blue. It seems like no amount of self-deception can change the ironclad fact that it has never been and isn't, at least when I open my eyes and look. :P

[Jamie]

My advice: feel free to take those breaks. When Cassidy first started fronting (and even now) I throw myself in front all the time. He has lasted from breakfast to dinner, but usually two hours is his limit. Our original plan was something like a 50-50 split for time in the body, but that's shown itself to be unrealistic, and we don't really mind.

 

I'm not sure what to tell you about having trouble dissociating, because I'm on the other end of that. I constantly lose connection to my body, my thoughts, and so on. Though it may be annoying that you can't switch or dissociate, it's perfectly healthy and natural to be built that way. I can kind of relate, from the other side of the fence! When I was in the thick of dissociation, I would look in the mirror and go "That's you, that's your body" and it was like... "Alright, if you say so... But you know... I don't believe it." I'd have moments of looking at my hands and going "Wow, am I actually moving these? I don't think I'm moving these."

 

Point is, I worked past that. And, bonus points, it wasn't self-deception. It was just a change in perception. It reminds me of people who say "I don't believe in optimism- I can't lie to myself about what's happening." It's not about what is and isn't: it's about what's important. If you're looking at a green apple and a red one, both apples exist, but you have to power to focus only on one. You can pick if today is a "Green Apple Day" or "Red Apple Day" without self-deception- it's not a lie or self-delusion to choose what's important to you. Your brain contains two "identity programs", and both exist, and that brain can choose which one is associated with the body. I wish I had a better word.

 

I think tulpas are made out to be too separate from their hosts. Maybe that just has to do with the fact that Gavin wasn't separate from me for years, and only became separate slowly. Still, I think the line is much blurrier than a lot of hosts talk about it being. It's all one brain. You are one brain, and she is one brain. It's really something that you have to figure out for yourselves, but if you know how to associate strongly with the body, so does she. If she's dissociated strongly, than you also know what that means. What does it mean to be in the body? It's a personal, schematic thing.

 

Insisting, self-deception, convincing yourself... I think your mindset is holding you back. If your brain counters and says "Yeah right", then that's not a good suggestion for you. Personally, the body is mine (though my tulpas have a say in what happens with it, since they live there.) The body is always mine, but I let Cassidy or Gavin have control when they want. Personally, switching is more about my tulpas than me. They're the ones saying "I'm in the body, I'm controlling the body." I'm trying my hardest to be quiet for a hot minute ;)

 

Lastly, don't let plans become a hindrance. Sometimes, it's good to adapt or even abandon plans, rather than making yourself or others miserable. There are plenty of systems that don't switch, and it's not a big deal.

 

-Jamie

[Guest LanceReilyn]

Very interesting insights Jamie, thanks. You being on the other end of the association spectrum from me (or so it seems), I couldn't have asked for better advice. I will agree right away about my mindset and how strongly and stubbornly attached to the body both Reilyn and I are. I can't know for sure, but it's probably one of the biggest reasons we are in the co-fronting situation we are. Before coming on these forums, before meeting Reilyn, I would have assumed all of this tulpa and brain hacking stuff was either impossible or impossible for me to do but now I'm curious to see what all I really can accomplish. Maybe that's one thing holding me back, I'm interested and curious about it but I'm not driven to discovery with a need like I was before I had her alongside me.

 

The guides mention that one doesn't even need a tulpa to switch, nor does one need a developed wonderland (I guess one of the things I'm trying to get out of this is I'm hoping to work on it from the inside). She tries to push and guide and whatever but we are both ridiculously pig-headed and that may be mirrored in the subconscious.

 

I'm not going to say, after only a handful of days total of effort with a completely new concept to me (disassociation) that "oh, I can't do it, nope nope" but I do need to fish around for other things that might work better towards a hopeful "ah hah" moment. It was a good reminder that I needed to hear now rather than after (what may or may not have been) weeks of frustrating failure.

 

As for plenty of systems not switching, I do wonder if that's due to lack of desire or determination rather than lack of ability. Anyway, like every experiment, Reilyn and I are keeping our minds open for unexpected discoveries that can benefit us in as many ways as possible so we are not just rating this all on success vs failure. It's only been a few days and I think we have already learned enough interesting things about ourselves and insights from you and reconsidering the state of our body and minds that it's been worth it and I look forward to what else will happen.

[Ember.Vesper]

It's all got me torn between trying to stick to the plan and taking breaks from it to make time for us to enjoy being together.

 

Having a bit of fun along the way is a critical part of self care, Lance. Please take care of yourself. Ember really likes you.

 

Personally, switching is more about my tulpas than me. They're the ones saying "I'm in the body, I'm controlling the body."

 

As opposed to me, who thinks something more like, 'Oh, yuck, the body again. I may be controlling it, but it is so not me.' Yet no amount of rejection of the body has ever reduced by control over it, even though it's vastly more accustomed to Ember's control.

 

Before coming on these forums, before meeting Reilyn, I would have assumed all of this tulpa and brain hacking stuff was either impossible or impossible for me to do but now I'm curious to see what all I really can accomplish.

 

I would have assumed that too, even after sixteen months experience at *being* the 'imaginary friend'.

 

As for plenty of systems not switching, I do wonder if that's due to lack of desire or determination rather than lack of ability.

 

It was a lack of desire on my part until I changed my mind. For us, switching was the one trivial thing, while every other tulpamantic discipline seems impossible. The first two times were accidental and only ten weeks after the first time we did it on purpose, we can literally finish one another's sentences while driving. We've whittled it down to no time or effort, yet it's completely stable and never happens by accident anymore. But we didn't do it with dissociation. While dissociation may be good for other things, it seems like going the long way around for switching.

 

-Vesper

[Guest Reilyn-Alley]

So, a couple days ago as we were going to bed, we placed ourselves into our standby head space, the velvet room (the limousine from Persona 4 that "exists between mind and matter, it separates dreams from reality") and we just cuddling and wondering what we could do with switching. Reading guides, trying things, meditating and stuff, has so far produced some kind of sorta maybe half-attached, half-detached feeling for Lance. Even that might be something different and have nothing to do with switching but we aren't going to be all negative about it (assume success is possible and close! woo!).

Anyway, we had the idea to ask the driver like we did once before on something else. He is a strange entity, mysterious and I dunno, maybe representative of deeper workings of our minds or something. Neither of us made him as we are aware, just one day we were talking while the limo was moving and suddenly the divider window between compartments came down and he asked if we had something to ask him. So it happened again. We told him our intention, to learn how to switch and we needed help with it. A guide, some insight, some exercise, the right mindset, whatever. Whatever our "subconscious" needed for this to work. We were hopeful, and he didn't even hesitate, he said "As you wish. We shall arrive in the near future. Please remain patient", and the divider went back up and we started moving again.

 

This morning, between our 2nd and 3rd alarms (yeah we make sure we wake up) we were sorta trying to catch a glimpse again of some dream I'd had earlier (where I was either selling shoes or helping someone put on their shoes.. I just remember putting a sandal on some strangers foot and it was apparently affixed by wrapping a single leather cord several times around one toe). Anyway, that all dissolved and we put ourselves back in the velvet room out of frustration (like, ok the dream isn't coming back, fine, let's do something that WILL work). We were starting to talk about what we wanted to do for the day and the limo stopped and the dividing window cam down a crack to announce "we have arrived". Lance and I kinda looked at each other like "Arrived? Were we going somewhere? Oh! Wasn't this that switching thing?" and got all excited. The driver opened the door for us and we hopped out to take a look...

 

So it's kinda hard to describe this but we saw moving and jumbled words on a giant paper wall. I dunno if the paper was a wall or it was some kind of giant bulwark painted white with black letters etched into it, might have been pages in a book or open scroll, whatever. Anyway, the only words we were able to make out, like, two of them moved and lined up plainly in what I assume was the middle of a sentence, were "religious" and "plumes". Then the last alarm went off and we snapped out of it. We are gonna try to go back there more later (almost time for work) to see if we can glean more info. A quick google on tulpa religious plumes gives nothing.. Searching for religious plumes brings up legends like the phoenix, Suzaku the Vermillion Bird and guardian of the South, Quetzalcoatl - deity of wind, air, and learning.. It also brought to mind the story of Dumbo, where he had the power to fly within him but needed a "magic feather" at first to give him the confidence to believe in himself.. And Icarus, who flew too close to the sun and died.

 

Anyway... Considering how absolutely wild and random symbolism and stuff seems to be, I figured I'd put this out there and hope to see if anyone had any tips, advice, thoughts on this strange info?

[Jamie]

Well, I'm not a big fan of dream analysis, but I'm all for trying to see meaning in things. Not because the meaning is there, but because what you see says something about you, like word association or inkblots. Same with dreams.

So, I'd say stop thinking of "religious" and "plumes" as connected so tightly. "Religious" is close to "believing", and we all know belief is central to tulpa progress. Perhaps, consider it a direction from your subconscious that belief will take you where you need to go.

Now... "plumes." When you think of plumes, are they smoke plumes, feathers, or plumes of something else? My gut reaction is that plumes are the result of burning, and to burn means to destroy, though it's a neutral type of destruction, just like we also use fires to cook and craft with, and some plants only grow after forest fires- it's not just arson and chaos. Plumes of smoke symbolize a visible sign of ongoing change, whatever that change is.

 

I use a tarot deck for inspiration sometimes. I think it's fun- interpretation is really a skill. However, I'll restate, I think the true message is in that interpretation, not the card you draw or the dreams you have. Dreams are just very fascinating and personalized , auto-generated shows our brains put on for us in the night. Awfully fun, too!

 

Google does a crap job of interpretation- it takes a human touch to get much personalized meaning out of it.

 

-J

[Guest]

Burning all doubts (plumb of smoke like in the smoldering ashes ofa ruined city), and having faith in your ability. (Religion is of course faith based).

 

Sounds like a good direction if you can now determine a method.

 

Destroying doubts is something we tulpamancers do, so there are plenty of methods there.

 

Having faith in your abilities could be like assuming you have the ability, or perhaps self-hypnosis to give yourself the suggestion that you can.

 

I have used self-hypnosis to overcome blocks, and destroy doubts, so, you could try either of you reading the script to the other in a relaxed position.

 

You're situation is not like ours, though Ashley successfully put me into a trance, but i lost the ability to remember or understand what suggestions she gave me. All i know is what she told me afterwards and how great i felt the next day.

 

She told me she's done this many times after i fell asleep, but this last time was so distinctly different i'm almost afraid to try it again.

[Venomous]

Huh, and here I thought you said plums instead of plumes lmfao. I'm glad I didn't originally comment, it would've been silly! I was ready to, in all seriousness, tell you that maybe it's time to grab some plums and have a snack :P.

 

Jokes aside, I love AB's interpretation of it. But also, don't forget to be patient. I feel that switching is a skill that takes a whole lot of time to master while requiring you to remain persistent without losing faith and without letting doubt take roots in your mind. And it seems to be that you might already be doubting it after just a couple attempts. I might be wrong, and if I am, I apologize in advance, but that's the feeling I'm getting.

 

Still, it's really cool that you got a vision of sorts. Maybe it signifies the start of something new :D.

[Breloomancer]

My response to this is less interesting and less fun than the other ones, but I don't think that it would be right to avoid giving advice simply because it isn't fun.

 

First of all I would not recommend trusting what the driver says more than your own intuition and logic because at best they are symbolic of the interworkings of your mind, rather than actually the interworkings of you're mind, and though symbolism can be useful for changing processes without direct access to them, they are not very good for gaining information. Thinking that you can gain information that you don't already have from the driver is like having a good tulpa and thinking that you are actually talking to god.

 

Secondly, symbolism is arbitrary so trying to figure out what the dream means will take more effort and have the same result as just creating completely new symbolism, so it's not really worth trying

[Guest Reilyn-Alley]

I guess I was just operating under the assumption that switching was already something that we can already initiate and do so easily (that learning to extend it and experiment what we can do with it, etc, would be where the hard work comes in), and the only thing stopping us is doubt and maybe a fear of letting go or a fear of being separated, whatever. It's just, I have very little reason to believe that this thing is required to take years of hard work and effort when there are cases of it happening accidentally or even constantly in the case of people with DID. It's our belief that the brain is already fully capable of this sort of thing immediately and it just takes time to get around personal doubts and fears. I guess we were asking the driver for a map through that minefield or if there was a vulnerability in that wall. Maybe even the idea that there is a vulnerability to find and exploit will be what ends up making it possible in the first place with us, we dunno.

 

Like I said, willing to try everything safe. Nothing else we have done, except visualization/synthesis has required months or years of time and effort from us, it just seemed to reason this wouldn't either and we just haven't found the right key yet to that door. We aren't gonna treat it as some insurmountable challenge that will take years to achieve because we think that's a self-fulfilling thing. We believe firmly that it's guaranteed to happen with enough time and effort, yes. But we also believe if we stumble upon some kind of skeleton key or backdoor that we can avoid the entirety of some kind of dedicated process, so we are keeping our eyes out for that while still working bit by bit each day towards it.

 

We tried asking the driver for what the wall meant and he just said "That is for the two of you to determine". Our brain is a smart-ass, but at least it's consistent.

 

Anyway, no, we aren't giving up already, lol. Just exploring more possibilities. When I say it's frustrating and stuff I don't mean we are on the edge of giving up, it's more a recognition we feel like we are on the cusp of something but can't quite get there. We feel teased by it, but close none the less. Why would we put less effort in when we are so close? <3

 

The thing you said, Bre, about gaining new information, yeah we know. We also know we are stubborn and sometimes ignore what we should already know.