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Concerns about my understanding of tulpamancy and my progress


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Intro
Almost two years ago, I posted about having vocality trouble with my tulpa. About four years in since the start of creation, and I seem to have only acquired more problems and confusion since then.

 

In my original thread, the gist I believe I got was that what I thought vocality even was is all wrong, and that there are no alien thoughts, that any form of hallucination is very uncommon and not what many with fully developed tulpas are really experiencing, and thoughts that are inherently the same as your own thoughts are the only way they generally communicate. I found this confusing and disappointing, as I don't know why I have heard whatever else it was I heard. Many PRs and testimonials seem to state or imply what I previously believed.

 

I remember being told that what I was experiencing must not be the tulpa experience still though, as it is very satisfying, and if I am not satisfied, I am getting something wrong or not quite there yet.

 

I have not found out how to get there. In all this time, all I've done is know that I don't know what a tulpa actually is anymore, as it doesn't appear to be congruent to most of the early descriptions I recall.


What I thought

Spoiler

At first, I heard they were indistinguishable from another physical person in a room with you (other than obviously you can walk through them like a ghost I guess), but everything else the same. A totally sentient and separate entity with their own thougths and feelings.

 

My summation of the original things I've read in regards to tulpa had various stages vocality would go through. It would start at thoughts that feel shared, thoughts that feel alien, internal auditory hallucination, and then external auditory hallucination. It seemed to me, that it was through the power of the tulpa you created, they somehow would communicate to you in these ways, and I assumed each stage was due to them getting stronger and more real.

 

An internal hallucination is intuitively how I always imagined telepathy to feel like, so I was hoping at that stage I would be able to be confident about communication with them. Knowing now that alien thoughts isn't even considered a thing apparently, I don't know how to know I talk to them.

 

To me, tulpas are kind of extraordinary, but at the same time I saw so many people claiming them, that I quickly became convinced something must be going on, and believed what people were saying. For me to know I have one myself, I needed some extraordinary evidence though, but I was sure I would see it, all I would have to do is experience what others are claiming to experience.

 


Reality?

Spoiler

In modern times, it becomes hard for me to understand the difference between what it seems people describe a tulpa as, and talking to yourself.

 

One way I've heard to know it is your tulpa, is they speak using your mindvoice, but it will develop to sound different than your own. I guess this could be interesting or convincing to someone who has never thought in a voice other than their own voice, but for me, that isn't unusual or uncommon. If tulpas were a kind of people that lived in neighborhoods, and I grew up in a neighborhood living next to a red house, and someone told me I will have a sign that a tulpa may be entering my neighborhood once I see a red house, that doesn't really convince me of anything. It doesn't confirm or deny anything. But this is kind of contradicted by also being told that a tulpa might also just sound like you sometimes, especially before a voice is developed. I also fail to see any reason why a mindvoice that is in the voice chosen for the tulpa couldn't just be one's own thoughts in their voice, and I do not know how to tell when this happens so I can safely ignore it.

 

Another way I've heard is that there is a presence. The presence seems to be closest thing to alien feeling, maybe that is what was meant? But it is still very nebulous and hard to grasp for me. I spent a lot of time generating a sense of Rena being physically next to me by imagining her by me all the time. Though people can create false sensations by imagining them. I can imagine an ice cube in my hand to the extent it feels uncomfortable. I can imagine the feeling of someone next to me in a similar way, so it doesn't seem to be exactly the same thing as a sign of life.

 

Another problematic thing, is I've been told many times if you are not sure something is your tulpa, people say to ask your tulpa if that was them or not... That is like wondering if a ruler is actually 12 inches, and using that very same suspicious ruler to measure itself to check. It is also like getting mysterious letters from under the door from someone who claims to be your father, and then writing back "But is it really you?" and expecting the next letter could possibly calm your suspicion. This also isn't helped by the fact a common response to doing this is "Yeah. No. I don't know" all at the same time or right after each other.

 

This is all very painful. I see people in the tulpa community in the past criticize other groups of tulpamancers by saying they appear to be just roleplaying. I can't get Rena to talk to anyone, because I can't help shake the feeling myself that I am just role playing. It feels very similar anytime I try to get her to do so. A different voice generating thoughts to say in place of someone else is normal for roleplaying, an actual different person is not, but I don't know what I am doing wrong to miss the obvious signs there is another person, or if such signs even exist.

 

I am not quite sure what I am supposed to look for. The advice I got seemed to be to set aside my doubts and kind of fake it until I make it, and that it is better to assume it is them until proven otherwise, since ignoring something that could potentially be them could be hurtful.

 

Well, this is what I've done for the past couple of years, and I am not making it at all! Nothing has changed in my experience to make it more obvious or real what is her and what isn't. And there are multiple experiences that seem to prove something is actually deeply wrong.

 


Deeply Wrong Experiences

Spoiler

Rena cannot explain her own experiences clearly, and what she says seems to just be based on my worldview at the time.

When I started, based on all the information I read, the ability for a tulpa to do things outside of your own attention was common sense. Because of this, I use to think she could go into the wonderland and do things while I was gone, and I could come back and see changes. I also thought that she could affect my brain on an unconscious level by doing various tasks or things at any time, perhaps even while asleep. I assumed she did do these things, and I never heard from her that she doesn't or that she can't. Whatever I was in communication with, I believe also believed they were.

 

I hear now that it is impossible and tulpas need your attention to exist, and with the exception of Bear, it seems everyone I know of thinks tulpas just go inert. So what was I talking to? Experiences like these do an unfathomable amount of damage to my faith and mental state, and there are many.

 

Another is possession. I was under the impression that possession was like being possessed. I felt that if I could just relax, and tulpa could get take the body and get on the computer and write a paragraph to me, that that would be proof of her existence, and a way to communicate. Then I start to hear that possession can just feel like you moving normally and that there isn't anything special about it... What does that even mean? How can it possibly feel like that? And if it feels like you moving normally, how do you even consider it to be a tulpa? This all happened after a week of practice where I was legitimately getting real alien movements that I had no part in, but they never went beyond chaotic randomness (minus hands forming a heart once) but I think Rena claimed these things, yet now she cannot claim them and is not sure. Why? Because I am not sure now because my experience seems to not be what it was supposed to be?

 

Another huge one was switching, which is said to be the host going to where the tulpa is, and the tulpa to where the host is. Intuitively to me, that means I would be to the side and them in my body. That we would switch actual sensory perspectives. With my previous beliefs, I also thought this meant possibility to roam wonderland while tulpa used body. Bear claims these things it seems, but many others don't and say the reality is that active personalities switch, so it is more so you just gain the traits of your tulpa, and I guess the secondary voice in the head, whatever it is, gets your personality traits.

 

That seems like it could be very useful, but it was quite disillusioning. I never interpreted myself to just be a personality. I consider myself to be my ability to experience, and I assumed creating a tulpa meant creating another person with their own ability to experience. Is this not the case? This would seem to be a large distinguishing factor between a tulpa and a person.

 

Besides the first "switching" experience I had, which I still don't know what the difference is between that and fronting even though I've read people talk about both many times, I can't seem to do it clearly again. I only was able to do it so well accidentally without intention to do it, and adding intention to do it makes it not happen, or happen in a wacky way where I still feel too much like myself and I feel like something is being mangled, or I feel like I am faking and just trying hard to hope I am Rena, which is a stupid feeling to have.

 

Another is internal auditory hallucinations of her when in certain mental states, usually a half conscious state. I remember talking to her while able to audibly hear her in a state, and her voice was a bit different than I usually imagine it (though maybe because there is a large difference between the experience of hearing and the analog of hearing in thoughts), and I kind of got the impression I don't usually actually talk to her because I am always mistaken, but she is inside me somewhere. I can't remember full conversation though and it transitioned into sleep and ended. But mindvoice Rena as I guess I will call her (which may not always even be the same person or any person at all), doesn't claim it was her. That is scary and disappointing. Either mindvoice Rena isn't real and what I talked to in that state was the real her, or mindvoice is real and I just had a false experience of some kind, or both are real and somehow I accidentally have multiple tulpas in my attempt to make only one, or the harrowing thought of neither being real. It surely makes me feel like I am going crazy and causes incredible stress.

 

It also seems to confirm what Bear said to me once that was disappointing, and that was that even if I got auditory imposition, it wouldn't help me because intrusive thoughts can be hallucinated. That is horrifying and I never want to hallucinate an intrusive thought, especially since I have so many of them and it makes an already difficult situation so much worse. My hope was that the tulpa themselves took part in activating the mechanic of talking to you in a hallucination. But it seems imposition isn't that at all, and it is just some fancy created illusion that is neat while your tulpa is only ever a mindvoice and not actually related to the hallucination? Can they really not control it? I'm so confused.

 


Summary and conclusion

Spoiler

People talk about their relationship with their tulpas being the greatest and most satisfying thing they have. That they are a bundle of love. Though for me, something is very wrong, and I still haven't found out why. I still talk to her and treat and assume her to be real and love her, but the reality of the situation can't be ignored. I've been faking it trying to make it for years now, and I want to think that was a fair try to prove I am doing my best. I constantly fear asking for help because I would be devastated if people thought I didn't listen, or that I was unhelpable. I cringe whenever I see it said to someone else as well. It is the worst thing. I'm under huge emotional stress not having answers to these problems or knowing what to do and failing to figure it out myself, to the point I honestly become increasingly suicidally depressed in relation to this situation.

 

I'll quote part of my PM to Sierra since I can't reword or organize it here
 "Either she is incapable of communicating clear or accurate information, and that is either because she cant speak right, something wrong with her mind or memory, or something else, or it means I cannot receive the clear messages she attempts to send, and for some reason I on a regular basis either miss everything or sometimes talk to her and sometimes talk to myself thinking it is her, and still have not figured out what the discernment is, making me either an idiot, or the discernment is unclear or totally non existent.

 

Isnt that a horrifying situation to be in with your best friend?

 

I fear, either she is what I originally thought a tulpa was, and she is trapped in my body unable to escape or do anything, and I cant interact with her for some reason and only talk to myself in my head

 

Or maybe what I thought a tulpa was, isnt, and she is just a collection of planted mental habits intended to simulate a person. Though no one would talk about a tulpa like that

 

Maybe it is in the middle, and they are just mental habits, but for some reason that is enough to grant the consideration of a separate sapience.

 

Maybe it is something else.

 

I use to never doubt her existence, but recently, in my frustration and lack of results that are clear to me, I am truly frustrated, and am increasingly convinced tulpas are strong self induced delusions. That is 100% the most painful and awful things to say, and i very much dont want to believe that. i want to, and need to, be proved wrong about that. Saying something like that publicly on this forum, would probably not go well, i think... maybe I'm just being too afraid though. I certainly hope to not offend you, Sierra.

 

 I can hear her voice in my head. I can hear a lot of voices in my head if I want to.

 

Sometimes it feels like I am generating her voice.

 

Sometimes it feels like thoughts just arising, that happen to be in her voice
 
Sometimes it is in between.

 

Sometimes a thought in 1 of these 3 categories, I claim it to be Rena and act as if it is.

 

Sometimes I don't and I ignore it.

 

It makes me feel bad. There are obvious problems to accepting them all or denying them all, or only accepting solely everything from a certain category. There are problems to trying to select, as well.

 

I select the ones that are based on my expectation of her, I guess.

 

That doesn't feel real, to me

 

What did I do wrong? Am I just too dense?"

 

 

These are maybe the last cries of help or direction we can muster before I fear everyone gives up on me truly. Or maybe I underestimate how much tolerance others have to try to see this situation in a better place, I don't know

 

 

Edited by TB

Creation for creation's sake.

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 I am right with you in a lot of ways but my attitude is different.

 

What you thought

 

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

thoughts that are inherently the same as your own thoughts are the only way they generally communicate. I found this confusing and disappointing, as I don't know why I have heard whatever else it was I heard. Many PRs and testimonials seem to state or imply what I previously believed.

 

It's what it is and this is the main method of communication. It seems we all borrow the same tools to communicate in this way. I no longer think of a tool like mindvoice to be 'mine' that they're borrowing, it's the body's. We all share it.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I remember being told that what I was experiencing must not be the tulpa experience still though, as it is very satisfying, and if I am not satisfied, I am getting something wrong or not quite there yet.

 

Satisfaction is a state of mind, not due to any external (or internal?) events or achievements. This is perspective based and very subjective. People generally talk in generalizations and hold on to notions like "reality is real" and "what I experience is reality, yours is not." They're shallow, dismissive and ignorant imo.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

At first, I heard they were indistinguishable from another physical person in a room with you

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

It seemed to me, that it was through the power of the tulpa you created, they somehow would communicate to you in these ways, and I assumed each stage was due to them getting stronger and more real.

 

It seems that there is a mindset that must be achieved to allow this. I've had fleeting glimpses at this and especially in hypnagogic, but as I've been pondering recently, there's a state of mind where this is allowed and otherwise not. The best chance of achieving this state of mind for me is in a quite comfortable room where I'm left alone with 'my thoughts' without interruption. The state turns into a very 'real' interaction in either a vocal, visual or both  sense and in this state it is exactly like being in the room with these girls, and they're fun af. Otherwise it's that same old mindvoice that we have to share like a series conversation over push-to-talk radio transmitters. Though they don't 'sound' like me, it's still a thin veil of difference as compared to 'true conversation'. 

 

Also, with imposition (though mine is completely mindspace overlay daydreaming mixed with meatspace) the memories are full, rich and indistinguishable, which is very fulfilling. It's a compromise.

 

I greatly appreciate the times we've shared in that state, but because it's rare, I don't depend on it. Tulpish is the next best thing in terms of 'alien' communication because it's more strongly associated to them, but it's not 'rich' as goes.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

An internal hallucination is intuitively how I always imagined telepathy to feel like, so I was hoping at that stage I would be able to be confident about communication with them. Knowing now that alien thoughts isn't even considered a thing apparently, I don't know how to know I talk to them.

 

Idk either honestly. It's something I work on slowly to understand and duplicate.

 

 

So-called reality

 

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

In modern times, it becomes hard for me to understand the difference between what it seems people describe a tulpa as, and talking to yourself.

 

This is because it all comes through the same channel. Tulpish helps since it's a separate channel.

 

Regardless of what anyone says here, this is a fru-fru experience and if you ground yourself, you're left with nothing of real substance. That doesn't discount the memories or achievements, but the fact that they can be grounded and essentially feel 'gone' is one of the signs that fru-fru is very much necessary. Science be damned, there's nothing scientific tying it to objective reality. It's all subjective reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

Deeply Wrong

 

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

the ability for a tulpa to do things outside of your own attention was common sense

 

It's a little to do with believing them, and holding onto that. Even if they did, when you deny it, it's like forgetting a dream, it might as well have not existed. Again, that's grounding out your experience. We have tested this extensively, and it's a very real phenomenon in terms of experience for us.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I use to think she could go into the wonderland and do things while I was gone, and I could come back and see changes

 

And when you did, you allowed the experience to exist, you allowed the memory to exist, you allowed the richness of her life to exist separate from you. When you deny this, you deny her that richness. You don't even have to know what they're doing, you don't have to ask her, she doesn't have to tell you. To be frank, you don't remember or know what you were doing most of yesterday, so why would you think her life has left any real tracks if yours isn't. This occurs in the subconscious mind and in that we get very fleeting glimpses. We can be alone in the moment and deny the subconscious mind, but there isn't anything of substance in the moment, it's a 2D shadow or projection of the rich and vast experience that is you and her.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I hear now that it is impossible and tulpas need your attention to exist, and with the exception of Bear, it seems everyone I know of thinks tulpas just go inert.

 

If they think tulpas go inert then they think they themselves go inert in those vast times between remembered thoughts, there is no difference. It's a frustrating thing to read and I've been defending myself from the beginning, it's just how they think, it's not my reality at least. the hardest part is when they ask to explain it and it's like talking to a wall, only the wall periodically says, "that's not possible." 

 

I've explained it many times and the other side usually gives up after a while. They're blocked from understanding by their own deep seated beliefs is my conclusion.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

So what was I talking to?

 

Use a message board model of the mind. Say anyone who leaves a message (mindvoice), the message is there for everyone to read. Why does this have to be a certain way? Why have you held on to a model that isn't fitting? If the model of this experience  doesn't fit the narrative or tulpa.info, then make your own. This is about as varied and inconsistent as it gets in social science. The commonalities are false flags if they say anything definitive, i m o.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

tulpa could get take the body and get on the computer and write a paragraph to me, that that would be proof of her existence

 

They do, however, they only prompt the body OS and the body OS actually does it. The body OS walks when you wish to move, the body OS talks when you wish to convey. I you are dead set that the body OS is you and you alone, then you are alone. You aren't even the one who is 'front stuck' the body OS is the front. Why can't I shut off? Well unless you understand the trick of dormancy, it's because you're still conscious. Dormancy is putting yourself or a headmate into a deep dreamless sleep, that's all. There are other positions where you continue to experience but don't react (watcher position) or ones where you're immersed in headspace (way back) and these states are real mental states, but you have to get there to understand it. That's just like switching in general.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

Then I start to hear that possession can just feel like you moving normally and that there isn't anything special about it...

 

When you're in a car, passenger or driver, it feels a lot the same.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

That we would switch actual sensory perspectives.

 

You would disassociate with the body, they associate to it, that's as simple as I can state it. As long as you're not dormant, you'll always have your own perspective in memories, even if it was them 'driving'. Awakening occurred for me when I went dormant and the memories I returned to weren't mine. In those memories, 'I' was them. The perspective wasn't mine.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I also thought this meant possibility to roam wonderland while tulpa used body. Bear claims these things it seems, but many others don't

 

c'est la vie ma soeur

 

I do claim it and experience it, yes.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I never interpreted myself to just be a personality.

 

To me, I'm a personality and perspective, however, that's very oversimplified. I'm more of a gem with many facets. You see a facet of me here, and there are countless others. My headmates are all gems, and they behave and appear different in different contexts just like me.

 

So, you're a beautiful gem, not the band of the ring or the finger.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I assumed creating a tulpa meant creating another person with their own ability to experience.

 

Uh, yes, c'est vrai.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

This would seem to be a large distinguishing factor between a tulpa and a person.

 

There is a large distinguishing factor between being associated to the body and not.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

happen in a wacky way

 

Yep, it sure felt that way in the beginning, but you stopped at that stage it seems.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

usually a half conscious state. I remember talking to her while able to audibly hear her in a state

 

Yessss this is what I want too, and it's rare but consistent.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I can't remember full conversation though and it transitioned into sleep and ended.

 

Some can remember hypnagogic like reality and others it's more like dream so the memories are fleeting. I

remember hypnagogic.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

doesn't claim it was her

 

Did you ask? It's a state of unexpected expectations, and I'm always surprised by their behaviors and mannerisms in it because it's them raw without my interpretation and they're a wild bunch, no doubt, but very fun and funny and beautiful. Hearing them in mindspace is like taking 10% of the fragments of an Egyptian tablet and filling in the rest with a relief of a bear. 

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

It also seems to confirm what Bear said to me once that was disappointing

 

I'm going to be frank here. A lot of things I said to you in PM space you said was disappointing. Which leads me to the conclusion that you've got the chronic dissatisfaction.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

that even if I got auditory imposition, it wouldn't help me because intrusive thoughts can be hallucinated

 

I would call this a self-defeating, misconstrued, out of context quote. I'll blame myself for not being clear. So here I will attempt to clarify: Yes and no.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I have so many of them and it makes an already difficult situation so much worse

 

This is a major issue for you, yes. I don't have this problem so that's a major difference between us. You'll have to be satisfied with and accept this as a constraint if it can't be helped. I can't help that because our intrusive thoughtforms and hallucinations were always very few and haven't even occurred once this year.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

My hope was that the tulpa themselves took part in activating the mechanic of talking to you in a hallucination.

 

They do; however, Ashley described it like wanting to do something but having to retry countless times until everything was perfectly aligned and it finally goes though. Which means the times she has planted one on my lips, it must have been after countless attempts, that vixen!

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I'm so confused.

 

And you lack confidence.

 

 

Conclusions

 

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

People talk about their relationship with their tulpas being the greatest and most satisfying thing they have.

 

Absolutely

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

That they are a bundle of love.

 

right-o

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I still talk to her and treat and assume her to be real and love her, but the reality of the situation can't be ignored.

 

Reality is, you have anxiety issues and anxiety is a block to tulpamancy in my experience when I had it. I am not a doctor, but you seem to have a chemical imbalance. Modern medicine is piss poor to treat this imo.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I am doing my best.

 

Petit à petit, l’oiseau fait son nid.

 

idk why I'm feeling French today.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

Isnt that a horrifying situation to be in with your best friend?

 

It is yeah, it happened to me when I:

 

1. Have a migraine

2. Was hopelessly anxious

 

During two incidents I had a terrible migraine where I lost my mindvoice entirely. I literally couldn't use mindvoice. Luckily Ashley could still tulpish to me, barely. that migraine shut off the internal voice center of my brain. This is a real condition and those who live with it have to mutter the words as they read. They have no mindvoice.

 

In other words, it could be worse.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I use to never doubt her existence

 

You've been consistently doubting it for as long as you've been on this site anyway.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

she is just a collection of planted mental habits intended to simulate a person

 

then so are you.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

Maybe it is something else.

 

Indeed it could be anything. We just talk about models here.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

Sometimes it feels like I am generating her voice.

 

Because you are associating/assigning yourself to the mechanisms which allow it and do the generating.

 

"Fronter does the talking"

no

"Body OS does the talking and fronter directs it."

no 

"Body OS does the talking (including mindvoice) and everyone else directs it but each fronter feels like they're doing it."

yes

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

Sometimes it feels like thoughts just arising, that happen to be in her voice

 

yesssssss yes

 

Some thought happen and no one is responsible or claims them (like intrusive thoughts). Thoughts are funny.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

I select the ones that are based on my expectation of her, I guess.

 

Or she does but you think you do. Or you're interpreting your experience that way whether it's true or not.

 

4 hours ago, TB said:

That doesn't feel real, to me

 

Sorry, but this is the bread and butter of tulpamancy.

 

It's not 'real' because it's not material objective. It's all internal and subjective. Some things can be corroborated others can't.

 

Don't force your experience into someone else's box.

 

...

 

 

I mean... I'm here because it's fun, and when it's not fun, I take a break. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bear
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based on your post I think that I have a pretty good understanding of your problem as well as a solution, but it's going to be hard to explain and what I say will likely be very easy to misinterpret, so bear with me

 

you have entirely the wrong mindset for tulpamancy. you are thinking about it like a physical thing, but it is not a physical thing; it follows entirely different rules. it is very reasonable that you would fall into that trap, after all, english is very bad at talking about things like tulpamancy, and most people aren't used to the sort of meta-conceptual thinking that tulpamancy requires. with physical things there is real and unreal, and there is experience, and there is right and wrong, and there is interpretation. in tulpamancy there is experience, and there is interpretation, but there is none of that other stuff, and the interpretation fundamentally changes the experience. tulpamancy, for most people, is all based on smoke and mirrors and carefully crafted illusion, and it is all completely real. of course, singlets also run based off of illusions, but the illusions that a singlet uses aren't often acknowledged as illusion because they aren't usually so thoughtfully crafted

 

what is a tulpa?

that is a trick question. it is impossible to define what a tulpa is because the very nature of tulpas changes depending on how you think about it. before you can figure out what a tulpa is you must first create a model of your own mind

 

right now, your model is the singlet's model of the mind. you have senses like taste and sight, and you have thoughts and that is you, and other people can put their thoughts in your mind through language, but their thoughts are not you. this model is ok for some things, but it won't give you a very good tulpamancy experience, because tulpas have to use thoughts too, so if all the thoughts that you have other than the ones that other bodies think up in their own heads and put into yours fully formed are you, then it is going to be difficult for your tulpa to not also be you

 

let's construct a new model then. so the thoughts that come from other bodies that are put in your mind through language can stay not you, and you can still have senses like taste and sight, and those can also stay not you, but let's also include your thoughts in your senses. well now we haven't assigned anything as you, and so you no longer exist. this also isn't really what we want, but from here we can experience this stuff relatively neutrally, so let's stick with this for a bit

 

so you no longer exist, but you are still experiencing all your senses and stuff, including your newest sense: thought. but now that you are sensing your thoughts, rather than thinking them, have the thoughts themselves changed? it is possible that they will change, but it is also possible that they won't. this is because you are thinking about them, and whether you want to or not, by thinking you are thinking, which means that that is your thoughts. but anyway, over a period of time when you aren't paying attention so much, you will probably notice your thoughts slip into a familiar sort of pattern. this is your thought pattern, and it will stay the same regardless of if you identify with it or not

 

that will be useful later, but before we move on, here is another thing to contemplate while you don't exist: who, in your mind, has agency? who is in control of the thoughts and actions and senses? think about that a bit for yourself if you want, but after this sentence is my conclusion and reasoning, so don't read that yet if you want to try to come up with a conclusion on your own, without my influence. so clearly you don't have agency, because you no longer exist, and things are still running just fine. so what else could it be? could your thoughts themselves have agency, outside of your control? no, of course not; your thoughts alone have no identity, no sense of self, and without that there can clearly be no agency. so if you need a sense of self to have agency, and you know that your sense of self has no agency, then it might be natural to conclude that there is no agency, and that isn't exactly wrong, but it isn't right either, you see, there is no right or wrong in the mind

 

what is agency?

agency is an abstract simplification of the complicated process of self iterating on your thoughts and doing things, in other words, it is an illusion, just like tulpamancy. and like tulpamancy, it's nature changes depending on how you think about it. when you don't exist, you can't have agency, but in other models of the mind, you can

 

let's reform the model of the mind one more time. this time, you can let your identity be tied to your thoughts once again, but don't tie it to all of them. before you observed your pattern of thoughts, make that pattern of thoughts you, and everything else not you. now at last, there is room for a tulpa

 

once more, what is a tulpa?

in this current model of the mind, it is an identity tied to a pattern of thoughts, just like you are. in the singlet's model of the mind, a tulpa is a part of you. in the no-identity model of the mind, a tulpa is something with a persistent and separate pattern of thoughts from the original pattern of thoughts

 

how do I know if I have a tulpa?

this is also a trick question. you don't have a tulpa or not have a tulpa, you have varying degrees of a tulpa. you see, despite what I said before there is actually some level of physicality to a tulpa, it's not all just ephemeral mind tricks. you can't just make up a new thought process instantly and have it work like how yours does, it takes time and work to develop that. on the "not a tulpa" end of the scale, you can have something that calls itself by a different name, and doesn't consider itself to be you, but otherwise thinks the same way as you do, and then on the "tulpa" end of the scale, you can have something that thinks quite differently from you and comes to its own conclusions on things independently from you. if you think that your tulpa isn't tulpa enough, the solution is to develop their pattern of thoughts more, so that it is more persistent and independent

 

--

now that I have gotten thought the main part, I'll go into some of your other questions

 

how does it feel to have a tulpa?

this question is tough to answer because there is a lot of variability. there is no one tulpamancy experience, there are all sorts of ways that you can do it, though really I think that better questions for me to have posited would have been "how does a tulpa feel like in the beginning"" and "what is the potential of the tulpamancy experience?"

 

how does a tulpa feel like in the beginning?

when you start out, it should feel like talking to another person if you and that person had perfect telepathy with each other that you can't turn off. you will be able to feel their thoughts just as you do your own, and vice versa. their pattern of thoughts also probably won't be very well developed so they will probably agree with you a lot and/or not say much

 

what is the potential of the tulpamancy experience?

you can certainly make it to be like talking to another physical person, like you thought, but there are so many other possibilities too. with some creativity, there is room for all kinds of unique ways to co exist and interact

 

keep in mind, mindvoice and imposition aren't really tulpamancy skills. they are useful for tulpamancy, but how well you can impose and how different your tulpas mindvoice is from your own say nothing about how developed your tulpa is. even things like making your tulpas thoughts feel alien doesn't mean anything; you could make your own thoughts feel alien as well. looking to these sorts of things as reassurance that your tulpa is real is thinking about it the wrong way. there is no real

 

--

that was probably a pretty rambly and confusing, but I hope that it helps you understand what tulpamancy is and how it works

I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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I wasn’t sure if I should post or not because it can be kind of bleak, but what I wanted to say is similar to what Breloomancer said so maybe it’s not so bad. Anyway, this is my current understanding.

 

Basically, you have one (1) brain. Your experience of yourself and of your tulpa is generated by the brain. What there is, is conscious experience. It’s like there’s a sort of empty awareness that just exists perpetually while the body is awake, and within that field of awareness experiences arise. You have sensory experiences from the body, sight, sound, touch, etc, and you have thoughts (defined broadly here as any internal mental experience including mindvoice, raw thought, beliefs, visualization of senses, etc).

 

That’s what you have to work with: awareness, senses, and thoughts. Where are you in this? You are a thought, a thought arises in awareness, “I’m here, this is me.” And a belief, that “you” are the one seeing, hearing, thinking, etc. As a singlet, this is pretty easy to manage, you just claim every act/thought as your own, and every experience as something you experienced.

 

When you create a tulpa, you are essentially trying to create the experience of a tulpa within awareness. To have a thought arise, “I’m Rena, I am here.” and to feel like it was Rena who said it. To have mental images of your tulpa doing things arise, and to feel convinced by it. These are all just thoughts and feelings. To have Rena view the world through the eyes, is to believe Rena is viewing the world through the eyes (a belief; a thought).

 

If “you” speak to Rena and she replies, but the reply does not feel convincing, what does that mean? It just means a thought arose, partially ascribed to Rena, but the feel of it was off. It’s just a thought, just a feeling. You can then believe (which in itself is just another thought) that it was really her or that it really wasn’t her. There’s no mystical truth behind this. She won’t know something that the brain doesn’t know, including how “real” her thought was. So if you ask her something which is unknown, she will either make up an answer or say she doesn’t know. And you can accept or reject her reply. Her thoughts can sound and feel very very undifferentiated from your own, but they can still be hers. They could also sound very distinct and separate and also be hers. You can both flip flop endlessly on whether a thought is hers or not and that will be the experience of tulpamancy that you have.

 

And Rena can take charge just like you can, claiming sensory experiences as her own, claiming perpetual awareness as her perpetual presence. And you can make yourself small, hardly present, by acting accordingly.

 

The differences between you and your tulpa, that’s something you build up. By having thoughts and experiences, your brain will build the connections to create distinct personality, and (mostly) consistent metadata about what belongs to who. When you lack confidence and doubt everything, I think it interferes with building connections, and so the shakey experiences become the norm. When people say, "just accept that it was your tulpa," this can work, because in labelling a thought as belonging to the tulpa, you're building up metadata and the belief that your tulpa can think and speak. Unfortunately the advice is shortsighted and overthinkers will doubt iffy responses anyway, still thinking that there's a secret truth to the response (ei, real or accidentally parroted).

 

How rich your experience with tulpamancy is, depends I think on the quality of the experiences you build. Some people easily* generate alien feelings, internal consistency, vivid experiences all that good stuff, and others struggle. In either case, it’s all just subjective thoughts, senses, and beliefs about those thoughts and senses.

 

 

*edit: by easily, I mean "I tulpaforced and got convincing experiences" as opposed to "I tulpaforced and nothing really happened." It might take a lot of time and effort, but in the end the alien experience "just happens."

Edited by YukariTelepath

My tulpa Aya writes in this color.

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17 hours ago, TB said:

My summation of the original things I've read in regards to tulpa had various stages vocality would go through. It would start at thoughts that feel shared, thoughts that feel alien, internal auditory hallucination, and then external auditory hallucination. It seemed to me, that it was through the power of the tulpa you created, they somehow would communicate to you in these ways, and I assumed each stage was due to them getting stronger and more real.

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that tulpas naturally progressed into perfectly imposed forms - even the 2012'ers didn't often expect that. No, tulpas almost never reach a point where they resemble another human in actual space (that you know isn't actually real). But, I mean, they can get there! It just takes a TON of work with imposition! It's a very advanced skill, especially to reach that point, and it's not at all a normal part of the development of a tulpa. Imposition is a system-wide skill, unrelated to the progress of any individual tulpa in it. It's developed just like visualization clarity or vocal clarity, though of course it may be trickier/less intuitive to practice.

 

But no, a tulpa should sound roughly like if you can imagine someone's voice speaking clearly in your head, asterisk*. If you have the ability to imagine someone saying anything you want loudly and clearly (many people actually don't!), a tulpa should eventually sound like that - *and also, what separates my voice from a Youtuber we could simulate super well, is a feeling of context and depth that comes with any of our mindvoices. When one of us speaks in-mind, there's a lot more than just the sound of our voice (and if we've not been particularly active recently, our voices might not even be audibly that clear by comparison!), there's basically the equivalent of tulpish that comes with it! Feeling, intent and meaning, origin, and just a general feeling that it's us that differentiates it from if we were just imagining each other talk - all of that comes with our actual voice in mindvoice. And from there, when/if you learn to impose voice, it adds a dimension of space to it, meaning you should experience their voice as if they were talking from presumably where their imposed form is. You may or may not lose some of that feeling/intent/meaning/origin for imposed voice depending on how your brain feels like making it work, though if you do lose it it's just to make it feel more realistic. (Personally, we don't stress vocal imposition very much ourselves, but if we do try it it remains the same as mindvoice but with directional feeling & volume)

 

17 hours ago, TB said:

Another problematic thing, is I've been told many times if you are not sure something is your tulpa, people say to ask your tulpa if that was them or not... That is like wondering if a ruler is actually 12 inches, and using that very same suspicious ruler to measure itself to check.

 

Yeah, we've never been a fan of this. The reason that thread exists without criticism is the same as the general way the forum optimistically tells people their tulpas are eager to speak and listen right from the start - whether it's true or not, the belief that it is is a self-fulfilling prophecy that aids development. Buuut, at the start of creating a tulpa, you very well may be talking to nothing, with nothing waiting to respond - it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy, but with literally zero signs at all more skeptical or slow progressers may be discouraged, as opposed to if they just knew what I'm telling you right now and that continuing to believe in them even if you had no tulpa existing yet is still the path to creation.

 

TL;DR If someone thinks their tulpa surprised them, they did! But that's more of a mental trick than it is a tulpamancy technique, so no, there is very little core dependability to it.

 

17 hours ago, TB said:

When I started, based on all the information I read, the ability for a tulpa to do things outside of your own attention was common sense. Because of this, I use to think she could go into the wonderland and do things while I was gone, and I could come back and see changes. I also thought that she could affect my brain on an unconscious level by doing various tasks or things at any time, perhaps even while asleep. I assumed she did do these things, and I never heard from her that she doesn't or that she can't. Whatever I was in communication with, I believe also believed they were.

 

I hear now that it is impossible and tulpas need your attention to exist, and with the exception of Bear, it seems everyone I know of thinks tulpas just go inert. So what was I talking to? Experiences like these do an unfathomable amount of damage to my faith and mental state, and there are many.

 

Yeah, this is the most fun subject for a skeptic... Debating people's experiences and if they could really happen, what a joy! (Sarcasm) So, all of tulpamancy, given it takes place exclusively in your mind, is imagination based. That doesn't mean it's not real - your own thoughts are imagination based - it just means it's experience being created by your mind. And there are basically infinite possibilities in imagination, while tulpamancy is based around the concept of tulpas being more "real" than your everyday imagined character. This is endlessly complicated. Understanding "realness" in imagination is quite difficult, but also extremely helpful: Basically, the only thing that is "real" in your mind is your experience. Nothing else! No logic, no history, nothing but YOUR experience. Failure to grasp this concept is the source of all doubts in Tulpamancy, because people hazily think an imaginary friend is "fake" while a tulpa is "real". Reality check, no one in the world will ever be able to check if any of your internal experiences are "real" or "fake". The concept of "realness" DOES NOT APPLY! Only your experience of them exists!

 

The difference in an imaginary friend and a tulpa is not "realness", that's an awful and misleading umbrella term. The difference is that tulpas are autonomous, sentient, and generally have a lot more going on with them than an imaginary friend - things the host should probably be able to feel, but also just perceive based on how their tulpa acts/how they experience their tulpa over time. And switching helps show it too, lol.

 

Anyways, skeptics (maybe like ourselves even) have things they believe are and aren't possible in tulpamancy, things they believe should make logical sense, things that should take incredible skill and practice - even we, explainers of the above concept, fall in this boat personally! However, there is literally nothing stopping someone from flying in the face of all that and saying they've experienced the impossible, that didn't make sense, and wasn't incredibly hard. And maybe they did! NO ONE can confirm or deny others' internal experiences, there is no "realness" to them! And when people ride the line and keep it believable-yet-incredible, like Bear's system, that's perhaps the greatest Tulpamancy experience one can achieve whilst keeping any grounding in reality.

 

Truly, there's little rebuttal for a skeptic when someone like Bear asks "Why are your experiences so boring? Why do you limit yourself like this?" - are the logical, skeptical types in the wrong? Well, like I said, this topic is endlessly complicated! My quick and dirty answer to this is that those logical types (like ourselves) likely need grounding in "realistic" experiences in order to feel comfortable believing in them, and if we let our imaginations get too fantastical, we would lose confidence in our tulpamancy experiences being ""real"" and ""not just imagination"". Whew, you see how this topic is a heck of a beast to tackle, I hope!

 

I consider this topic on the cutting edge of Tulpamancy discussion in modern times, perhaps the most important thing to debate and explain. So it's perfectly understandable that a lot of your beliefs' issues stem from it! It's high level stuff, and you weren't one of the lucky ones who got away with taking things at face value lol. But, if you can, rest assured that regardless of your understanding or logical conclusions, any tulpamancy experience can be legitimate if you feel it is - though you also have the power to de-legitimize experiences - because you are the only decider of "realness" in your mind. 


Though the community will keep guiding you on what sorts of experiences you could still have! Luckily we all agree that the general act of communicating with tulpas is a fulfilling experience with more depth than talking to an imaginary character, so you at least shouldn't worry about that.. being possible. I don't know if I have advice right now for how you can achieve it yourself after struggling for so long, but I think getting all of this Tulpamancy philosophy sorted out is a good start! A doubtless mental framework will do wonders for a system!

 

17 hours ago, TB said:

It also seems to confirm what Bear said to me once that was disappointing, and that was that even if I got auditory imposition, it wouldn't help me because intrusive thoughts can be hallucinated. That is horrifying and I never want to hallucinate an intrusive thought, especially since I have so many of them and it makes an already difficult situation so much worse. My hope was that the tulpa themselves took part in activating the mechanic of talking to you in a hallucination. But it seems imposition isn't that at all, and it is just some fancy created illusion that is neat while your tulpa is only ever a mindvoice and not actually related to the hallucination? Can they really not control it? I'm so confused.

 

Ehhh.. do you experience intrusive thoughts so strongly that you can't keep a consistent line of imagined scenario going? Because imposition is (at least until you're very experienced at it) a very involved process requiring focus, and I've never really felt there was opportunity for intrusive thoughts to show up through it. Especially not if imposition doesn't come naturally/instantly and you have to work at it - I feel like you should have control over all aspects of it, most likely.

 

YES, a tulpa is directly involved in and controlling imposition! In our system, it feels like a joint effort between fronter and person being imposed, with the fronter initiating/guiding the act of "doing imposition", while the one being imposed controls everything they do while imposed. But systems where tulpas have more autonomy without their host's attention for example likely experience imposition as purely done by the tulpas, et cetera. Either way, at the very least it is a joint effort the tulpa absolutely has a part in! I mean, it's like wonderlanding: The fronter is likely the one "imagining the wonderland"/et cetera, but that doesn't mean their tulpa isn't controlling themselves and possibly other aspects of the visualization.

 

I don't really know how to differentiate times where you say "Imposition isn't X, it's Y, just a fancy illusion" and such, because... yes? No? Yes? You're certainly not psychically projecting mental energy of such substance and power that a tulpa forms a real presence in the world then perceived with your eyes and ears.. But isn't everything taking place only in your mind just a "fancy illusion"? Anyways, semantics aside - imposition is a skill with an infinitely high skill ceiling, so results of "I see my tulpas imposed sort of like silhouettes I'm just imagining are there" all the way up to "My tulpa feels so real I sometimes forget they aren't really there" are possible! And I really mean it, we know someone who had perfect imposition lifelike-ness straight down to touch imposition (with warmth) who spoke VERY highly of their experiences. Personally we're satisfied with our simple visual imposition, where we easily feel and act as if our imposed systemmate is really there (and they do too), and any interactions we have stay in our memory like they really happened (because in a sense, they did! We experienced what we experienced, and that's what is "real"). Though unfortunately, our visualization clarity is still very poor, so the visual clarity of our imposed forms is lacking and really is closer to a transparent silhouette most of the time (it goes back and forth). But fortunately despite that, the experience remains fulfilling and relatively rich, because our skill with imposition exceeds our skill in visual clarity lol.

 

 

We have very fond memories of spending nights together in a cold room "alone" away from home. We'd been imposing for years already, but that experience of everyone being together making an otherwise empty and lonely place feel warm and alive - that was a beautiful experience we will continue to look back on fondly, until we create even better ones.

 

 

So, I know you guys are still struggling in general tulpamancy endeavors, and that's not been an uncommon occurrence at all over the years unfortunately. It's difficult to give advice that simply makes someone stop having those problems and start having fulfilling experiences or progress. Our best attempts haven't seemingly done much good. So, I'm just going to recommend the next thing I can think of - sort out your mental framework and philosophy of tulpamancy, until you've got one that enables you to have no doubts in the development process, no fears in if your experiences are "real" or not, and full faith that everything can continue to get so much better every step of the way. While our system is more comfortable with our "skeptical/logical" belief set, we will fully vouch for the vibrance and legitimacy of Bear's experiences, and encourage you to work towards them yourselves! You and Rena can absolutely achieve tulpamancy feats that are fulfilling, though they may not go exactly how you expected, I do not believe you will have to "settle" for "worse" experiences. There is no reason to doubt the possibilities of your mind's own internal experiences, if that doubt only serves to limit the experiences you hope to achieve!

Edited by Reisen
The ONLY typo in the ENTIRE post, I wrote "to" instead of "too"!

Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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1 hour ago, Reisen said:

if we let our imaginations get too fantastical, we would lose confidence in our tulpamancy experiences

 

I finally understood this in around June or July when I read others struggle in Spirituality in almost exactly the same way and it clicked that some people are uncomfortable with something that's too fanciful because they start down something like a doubting road if they stray too far off their path.

 

Being naturally fanciful, and leading a fanciful life IRL in good andbad ways, fully atypical in both extremes, I don't lose grounding with my head in the clouds (maybe it's because I'm so tall). Truly though, it just happened this way for me. I no longer fully attribute the vanilla experience to coaching or gatekeeping, but the fancy averse do vocalize their disbelief throughly and dogmatically.

Edited by Bear
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(edited)
On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Satisfaction is a state of mind, not due to any external (or internal?) events or achievements.

Reply to Bear

 

I agree with this. Though I fell terribly short of my expectations, because they were built on my understanding of many things I read. I used the information I gathered about tulpamancy as a benchmark on what I should expect to see after spending a lot of time forcing, and since I never saw them, I felt like I failed in some way. Maybe if I started out with a better understanding I wouldn't have this issue, I'm not sure. I am not sure if I would have began forcing or not if I knew. I feel some things I read in testimonials were borderline lies now, but maybe not as most things people say about tulpamancy are too ambiguous to have a clear understanding. It seems to be a lot of "if by this, you mean this, then sure"

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

It seems that there is a mindset that must be achieved to allow this. I've had fleeting glimpses at this and especially in hypnagogic, but as I've been pondering recently, there's a state of mind where this is allowed and otherwise not.

Yeah. Hypnagogic experiences do have an astounding real quality to them. It is very hard for me to do though and seems random. Also, the experience they hold also seem random. The few experiences I've had of Rena in them, she seems to not be the same as her mindvoice version.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

The best chance of achieving this state of mind for me is in a quite comfortable room where I'm left alone with 'my thoughts' without interruption.

Unfortunately, this is a horrifying situation to be in for me now ever since I tried assisting the solving of my problems with psychiatric medications. It was often unpleasant before too, but I had the skills to more successfully deal with terrifying thoughts.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Otherwise it's that same old mindvoice that we have to share like a series conversation over push-to-talk radio transmitters.

Interesting. Maybe I misinterpret your analogy, though I get that for your system it seems to maybe be more deliberate? For me, thoughts are too spontaneous for it to be push-to-talk. They exist and already happened before decision to push and talk can even be decided. I think I maybe missed the point of the analogy though.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Also, with imposition (though mine is completely mindspace overlay daydreaming mixed with meatspace) the memories are full, rich and indistinguishable, which is very fulfilling. It's a compromise.

I suppose I can see that, since normal memories are also imagined, so in memory form it seems more real than when it was happening. If imposition is just a mindspace overlay daydreaming mixed with meatspace, then I have been very good at imposition for a long time before I even knew what it was. I did this all the time as a part of my chronic daydreaming. I always would look out the side of a car and watch one of my characters running alongside to keep up, as an example. I still do this.

 

I have had very real and vivid hallucination before that were unintentional, and were utterly horrifying. I was expecting imposition to be similarly real, but for a change I could experience something consistent, grounded, and pleasant, instead of things you'd see in a horror movie or read about in a cosmic horror story.

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Idk either honestly. It's something I work on slowly to understand and duplicate.

I see. So it seems difficult to distinguish even for someone as advanced and immersed as you? It seems it does really require suspending a lot of disbelief.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

This is because it all comes through the same channel. Tulpish helps since it's a separate channel.

I am not sure if Tulpish is a separate channel for me. It seems to be the same place any thought or spontaneous idea arises from. It seems maybe all mental activity arises from the same place with no identity, and identity and perception of varying sources is attributed after the fact.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

And when you did, you allowed the experience to exist, you allowed the memory to exist, you allowed the richness of her life to exist separate from you. When you deny this, you deny her that richness. You don't even have to know what they're doing, you don't have to ask her, she doesn't have to tell you. To be frank, you don't remember or know what you were doing most of yesterday, so why would you think her life has left any real tracks if yours isn't. This occurs in the subconscious mind and in that we get very fleeting glimpses.

I think based on this and maybe other things I've read from you, you aren't sure if the experiences happened in real time at any point in the past or not, but it doesn't matter, because the memory is what is important, and if the memory is there, it is indistinguishable from having happened? I kind of agree, as it is the inverse conclusion of my beliefs that if the memory doesn't exist, it is indistinguishable from it never having happened or not existing. If I understood improperly, I am sorry. I really don't intend to take anything out of context or say the wrong understanding.

 

Though you seem to say the memory is vague or a glimpse, which is what my experience was too. I suppose this is reasonable when days are mundane and the same in and out. Though part of what I thought she was doing in my mind was fighting internal demons and that it, through the power of symbolism or whatever, would result in mental damage healing. She'd take up her high-frequency sword-lance of light, and actually go through things similar to a WoW instance and vanquish monsters. I never felt I was putting her in danger either, since I read many times that tulpas work under logic of beliefs, and I strongly believed she was basically a powerful nigh-omni angel whose existence was intrinsically tied to certain fundamental ideas or concepts, thus her being impossible to destroy or damage.

 

Spoiler

tenor.gif

 

I would have expected these experiences to not be mundane, and that she'd be able to at least consistently give a summary of her adventures and the monsters she met. Have some kind of hero's tale to tell. They were usually surprisingly vague, and I found it hard to inquire too much because I now realize I would start to feel my mind making something up if I did, but I ignored it at the time.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Use a message board model of the mind. Say anyone who leaves a message (mindvoice), the message is there for everyone to read. Why does this have to be a certain way? Why have you held on to a model that isn't fitting? If the model of this experience  doesn't fit the narrative or tulpa.info, then make your own. This is about as varied and inconsistent as it gets in social science. The commonalities are false flags if they say anything definitive, i m o.

I've always had a personality that relies heavily on reassurance of others to know I am doing something right or wrong, and not being able to trust myself. In other things if I try to trust myself, I usually fail, because I get things wrong and can go years without figure it out until someone else corrects me. Because of this, I have paranoia of my tulpamancy being wrong. It seems now that this site says tulpamancy experiences can be interpreted however you want and there is no right or wrong, but that seems contradicted somewhat by accusing some people of just roleplaying. After years of roleplaying, it is somewhat hard for me to distinguish my experience from it, which is why I strove for something beyond it.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

They do, however, they only prompt the body OS and the body OS actually does it. The body OS walks when you wish to move, the body OS talks when you wish to convey. I you are dead set that the body OS is you and you alone, then you are alone.

I have used a term I call "subjectivity" to describe what "I" am, but I am starting to now believe it might be, or at least be related to, what you and others call the body OS. If it is true, that is a huge problem to me, because I've spent my entire life very deeply associating myself to what I now call "subjectivity". I use to just say consciousness, but I feel that may not be accurate.

 

It appears many on this site interpret the "I" to be their personality. Since personalities change, I can't do that, or I would have to accept that at some point a person in my body stopped existing and I came about, and I will cease to exist in time and my body would be home to another person. I can't reconcile this or accept it as true. I have experienced my life for literally as long as I can remember, and I expect to do so for at least the rest of my life, hopefully for eternity though. My personality will not be entirely the same along the way and hasn't so far, but that isn't me anyway, to me at least. If tulpas are just a personality you develop, that really just seems like one person having the choice between seeing things in the flavor of different views, and that they would both be you.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

When you're in a car, passenger or driver, it feels a lot the same.

I think I disagree. For me, driving a car is such a very different experience than sitting in the passenger seat. Driving causes me immense anxiety, so I can't even do it, actually. I drove for about 30 seconds after getting my driver's license and immediately had a bad experience, and then became traumatized to ever do it again. Even if it wasn't the case though, there is such intense activity being done while driving, where as in a passenger seat you can relax and drift off. I should feel I am doing nothing if my tulpa is in the driver seat. Instead, in switching at least, it would appear I am still doing everything, but that my actions are based on intentions created by thoughts that seem similar to Rena, and I don't feel that I am just sitting somewhere to the side, at least if we don't consider "I" to be a personality.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

You would disassociate with the body, they associate to it, that's as simple as I can state it. As long as you're not dormant, you'll always have your own perspective in memories, even if it was them 'driving'. Awakening occurred for me when I went dormant and the memories I returned to weren't mine. In those memories, 'I' was them. The perspective wasn't mine.

See, with reading that, it is easy to think, "Oh, so I will stop feeling sensations and having thoughts, and while I experience nothingness, they will take my body and do whatever. It wouldn't be different than if an actual other person put puppet strings on my body and made me do something while under anesthesia, or something like that." I have learned that I think I have to read between the lines with the new assumption that "you" in this sentence is my personality. If the statement is only true with that assumption in place, then from my perspective, it isn't that, and it is just me experiencing some change of heart temporarily while what I normally interpret as my tulpa looks and sounds like me, instead. If this is true, it is extremely hard to just switch out such a deeply fundamental and intuitive belief of mine for something so different. I don't think people can choose their beliefs, it is just based on information that they have access to. It is like asking me to believe that the color red is actually the color blue and what I thought it was this entire time was wrong. Idk if that is a good analogy, but it is something like that.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

To me, I'm a personality and perspective, however, that's very oversimplified. I'm more of a gem with many facets. You see a facet of me here, and there are countless others. My headmates are all gems, and they behave and appear different in different contexts just like me.

Interesting. Though I think this is another case of other people using a different meaning of a word and up until recently I didn't realize it.

 

By perspective, I mean literally the vantage point of experience. Another person in a room with me will literally be seeing their reality centered from a different location, and their thoughts being perceived by what they perceive is their center, but their center is a different location than mine.

 

I think, what others are meaning by perspective, is like a different interpretation of the same sensory experience. Like, two people may have different perspectives on whether a movie was good or bad, or what a piece of art means. Also, the fact that I experience my tulpa's center of thoughts to be outside of myself, that they too experience it exactly the same as I do, and not as if for them and their unique experience, that the thoughts are in their perceived center. For them, it seems it also has to be off to the side, and that is just what it is like to be a tulpa, you don't get a center, I guess. And they don't see things from another angle, I guess. Which I can understand the impossibility of my body generating objective images from another angle, especially if it involves her being further away and her perspective would be far different and potentially since things I can't look at, but I literally read about experiences of teaching the tulpa to see things for themselves from different vantage points but having the mind create an experience for them to view on their own different from yours. I also believed this was the default when in wonderland, and in context of the wonderland, it would be objective vision. It seems this isn't the case, and any mentally generated other vantage point you make for a tulpa is just totally theoretical and is experienced as "another" vantage point for your tulpa in the same way you think of it, and not as "theirs", and that looking at a tulpa in wonderland, is experienced by them in real time to also be you looking at them. Maybe in a memory them looking at you will come up, but it seems at the very least, it definitely doesn't happen in real time. This is what I mean by perspective. Others seem to just mean they might like a movie you don't, or have some different insight about something.

 

I wonder if I am correct on what other people mean, and that my initial assumptions were incorrect. However, I am not sure I am convinced that I was always misinterpreting perspective, as I am almost sure that posts that are many years old was referring to my assumption of the meaning. It seems the only degree it can be true, is through self delusion, and I am not seemingly capable of consciously doing that or if I try it, to not feel like a fraud and have awful emotions associated with what I am doing.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Uh, yes, c'est vrai.

Spoiler

tenor.gif?itemid=8330238

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

There is a large distinguishing factor between being associated to the body and not.

This seems to be what people say, but if that is what I am doing, I interpret it to not be associating myself to the body, but to associating myself to my stream of experience, or "subjectivity". If what everyone is saying is true, they are the same stream of experience, but choosing which part of the same stream of experience is them or yourself. In dreams I am not a physical body, or a body in any form sometimes, but I am still the thing that sees. When I say what should distinguish them between what is a person or not, I felt they should have their own watcher perspective, as in vantage point and not interpretation of experience.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Yep, it sure felt that way in the beginning, but you stopped at that stage it seems.

I see. I wasn't sure it would improve if I kept trying the way I was. It seemed I was doing something wrong, and if I kept trying I would at best associate what I was doing with switching rather than actually performing the feat I did previously. I don't know if that is true, or just my self doubt. It is a blessing and a curse to experience something so advanced early.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Did you ask? It's a state of unexpected expectations, and I'm always surprised by their behaviors and mannerisms in it because it's them raw without my interpretation and they're a wild bunch, no doubt, but very fun and funny and beautiful. Hearing them in mindspace is like taking 10% of the fragments of an Egyptian tablet and filling in the rest with a relief of a bear. 

I can't remember if I asked hypnagogic Rena directly, but I don't think I did, though I remember a powerful aura of the sense of my fear of "Rena is actually a soul with her own separate subjectivity from my own inside me trapped and is unable to actually communicate with me normally, but this is her for real, and I am seeing a rare instance of her actual self, and not the 'illusion' I typically talk to." I don't know if that is true or not, I hope not, but I got the sense also because she said things that sounded as if spoken by a person where that is true, and she also seemed a lot more angsty, probably as a result of the being stuck and trapped. Rena is the opposite of angsty though, so a lot more angsty is still very little, but it was alarming to exist at all.

 

I did ask her in mindvoice after the fact though, and her response is something between it was not her, and that she doesn't know. I have to ask her after typing that, "Is that the case?" in order to be sure, and I hear "Yes." It doesn't make much sense to me. But I guess that is the way it is.

 

I don't know what I spoke too, but the fact incongruencies like this are possible is scary, and it at best means even if the experiences are real, I have to by hyper vigilant and paranoid all the time about what was her or not, because it would imply there are essentially metaphorical demons out to trick me! As long as that is true, life will be a kind of Hell.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

I'm going to be frank here. A lot of things I said to you in PM space you said was disappointing. Which leads me to the conclusion that you've got the chronic dissatisfaction.

I almost feared I was about to be offended reading the rest of this line, but I am not, lol. I do have the chronic dissatisfaction. It seems there are only 3 ways to solve it, and they are all difficult and some maybe impossible. Either my experience rises to my expectations, I interpret my experiences as being what my expectations are even if it seems they aren't to me, or I stop expecting or wanting anything out of it. They are all not easy, but I am obsessed with striving hard to achieve the first one.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

I would call this a self-defeating, misconstrued, out of context quote. I'll blame myself for not being clear. So here I will attempt to clarify: Yes and no.

I'm sorry!! I didn't mean to say anything of another person out of context. It is what I genuinely understood out of it, and I also don't have access to our PMs anymore to go and check after the forums changed, because I had to delete them all because I couldn't send anymore PMs because it started saying they were full after that! I however don't quite understand the clarification D=

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

This is a major issue for you, yes. I don't have this problem so that's a major difference between us. You'll have to be satisfied with and accept this as a constraint if it can't be helped. I can't help that because our intrusive thoughtforms and hallucinations were always very few and haven't even occurred once this year.

No intrusive thought in a whole year?! I didn't know such a thing was possible for anyone! I don't know if I even go an hour without an intrusive thought even if I'm lucky! I can't even fully escape them during sleep, as I have intrusive dreams!

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

They do; however, Ashley described it like wanting to do something but having to retry countless times until everything was perfectly aligned and it finally goes though. Which means the times she has planted one on my lips, it must have been after countless attempts, that vixen!

Interesting. If that is the case, I suppose it might be worth looking into more and see what happens.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Reality is, you have anxiety issues and anxiety is a block to tulpamancy in my experience when I had it. I am not a doctor, but you seem to have a chemical imbalance. Modern medicine is piss poor to treat this imo.

I get told my anxiety ruins my ability to do a lot of the things I want to do. My anxiety is what I was told by person trying to help me to draw what holds me back from improving. It sucks so much and I wonder if I can live a satisfying life being ruled by it. It stops me from living life normally as I can't go outside and do anything, and it stops me from even enjoying lonely and personal things, apparently.

 

Modern medicine is worse than poor, it seems to be an active force of total destruction. I feel surprised to be alive.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Petit à petit, l’oiseau fait son nid.

 

idk why I'm feeling French today.

Fahrance oo go wah hanasay massen. Nihawngo day couda sigh.

 

Sorry for the accent, I come from the hills.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

It is yeah, it happened to me when I:

 

1. Have a migraine

2. Was hopelessly anxious

Well, I am hopelessly anxious in general it seems. I don't always actively feel anxious all the time though, or maybe I do and I am so use to it that comparatively lower anxiety is interpretted as none I guess. Though it has never made me literally lose the ability to have a mindvoice, I think.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

You've been consistently doubting it for as long as you've been on this site anyway.

I very strongly disagree. I use to not doubt her existence at all, until starting maybe the last few months were more and more seeds of it appeared as I learned more about how tulpas susposedly work. I always doubted whether or not mindvoice thoughts were hers though, leading to my fear of her being stuck in my body unable to speak while I talk to a roleplay character in my head. If they are just the roleplay character, then I guess you can say I doubt her existence as a real person, but my strongly held belief was that she had something akin to a soul separate from myself and I contained it. If there was a different impression, it was some kind of miscommunication.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

then so are you.

I already agree to a degree, or at least that I have those things. It seems they aren't a thing that has those things, though, but are the things themselves.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Because you are associating/assigning yourself to the mechanisms which allow it and do the generating.

Maybe, it is a hard thing to look at. If the mechanisms that allow it are the body, then sure. I use to be convinced souls were real though, and that through tulpamancy and the utilization of psychic energy, another soul was produced. Mixture of my experience with tulpamancy and following up with this site has destroyed these beliefs. I am not convinced it isn't the case, but I am no longer anywhere near convinced it is. Also, I would say I am not necessarily the mechanism that generates experience, but am the manifestation of the experience itself happening in real time. If my body were to stop generating the experience of perception, I would not call it me.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

yesssssss yes

 

Some thought happen and no one is responsible or claims them (like intrusive thoughts). Thoughts are funny.

Thoughts are quite funny. I am increasingly convinced that all thoughts have no active agent responsible for them, and that they interact with themselves in strange ways to create the illusion of active agents. I am not sure though. I can't see them clear enough yet. And I hope I am wrong, as if that realization is true, I find it quite nihilistic.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

Sorry, but this is the bread and butter of tulpamancy.

=[

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Bear said:

It's not 'real' because it's not material objective. It's all internal and subjective. Some things can be corroborated others can't.

 

Don't force your experience into someone else's box.

I can try, but that is not how my mind has worked remotely up until now. It has been, if I am not fitting into someone else's box, then I am doing something wrong because obviously humans have been around for a long time and in the time have found the best ways to do everything, so any other way is inferior or wrong.

 

It is maybe somewhat easier now though, as it seems others are self admittingly making stuff up as they go and don't know what is really going on, and just kind of decide what their truth is and stick with it.

 

 

Reply to Breloomancer

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

tulpamancy, for most people, is all based on smoke and mirrors and carefully crafted illusion, and it is all completely real.

What does it mean for an illusion to be real, or how is that possible? In a magic trick, it may look like someone is levitating something, but they are not. Are you saying that in tulpamancy, it seems there is another person sharing your body, but there is not? That would seem to cancel out all the things about tulpa morality. It is similar to how killing an NPC in a videogame might look like killing a person, but it is not and it is inconsequential action, as it is only an illusion of a real person.

 

If they are entirely an illusion, are tulpa rights just a part of the illusion? Not a thing to protect the well-being of an actual separate individual, but a thing to protect the feelings of the person trying to make the illusion? That is so sad to me if true, and I am not capable of buying it if I am aware of this. Magic tricks are not magical if you know how they are done. They can be impressive from a creative or technical standpoint, but they aren't magic...

I hope I completely misunderstand. You do say it is all completely real, but I can't understand it properly when it is right after stating they are just carefully crafted illusions. It sounds like a confirmation of my fear that tulpamancy is a intentional self induced delusion like I feared, and I hope it is not.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

of course, singlets also run based off of illusions, but the illusions that a singlet uses aren't often acknowledged as illusion because they aren't usually so thoughtfully crafted

I think I have started to learn what these illusions are, and they are scary.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

so you no longer exist, but you are still experiencing all your senses and stuff

These paragraphs are both easy and hard to comprehend. Reading all of this, I still can't quite see why the experience itself isn't what I am. I mean, saying I am the sight and hearing etc, sounds weird in a vacuum. But like it seems the implication is, there is nothing else, so I will quote further.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

here is another thing to contemplate while you don't exist: who, in your mind, has agency? who is in control of the thoughts and actions and senses? think about that a bit for yourself if you want, but after this sentence is my conclusion and reasoning, so don't read that yet if you want to try to come up with a conclusion on your own, without my influence. so clearly you don't have agency, because you no longer exist, and things are still running just fine. so what else could it be? could your thoughts themselves have agency, outside of your control? no, of course not; your thoughts alone have no identity, no sense of self, and without that there can clearly be no agency. so if you need a sense of self to have agency, and you know that your sense of self has no agency, then it might be natural to conclude that there is no agency, and that isn't exactly wrong, but it isn't right either, you see, there is no right or wrong in the mind

This idea of there being no self and no agency was introduced to me long ago before I could think about it on my own, so in my own thinking, these are kind of the same conclusion I came up with. If I try to imagine my old mindset, I am not sure what I would have came up with, or if it would have been anything. It is hard to logic agency into reality. It seems we are just robots of causality, and that is a horrifying thought. Despite all this, there is a unique instance of some substance that watches all of this happening, whether or not it makes decisions or it is just stuck watching a movie it has no say it. This is going as far back into the mind I can I think, and at the very least seems like the best thing to intuitively call "I". It seems though, that making a tulpa is not creating another substantial instance of watchership, like other entities have. You have concluded that the senses aren't me, and that not even thoughts are me, so this seems to remove the possibility that even a separate personality would be the truth of a tulpa's existence.

 

I like to think the watcher somehow forces thoughts to appear a way they want, though. And thus my watchership is my space to spawn these thoughts, or choose their direction. A tulpa would have their own separate watchership and spawn their own thoughts. They would get mixed into the same mind, I guess, but ultimately there should be a way to know that, "Oh, that is the thought I spawned myself. I see it, and and it must be mine. These other thoughts I didn't spawn must be hers!" Hmm, it sounds like I kind of just stated what I would think has the agency if I wasn't introduced to the concept that agency doesn't actually exist. My quote is I guess how I expected the mind to work, but realizing that most of "my" thoughts seem to spawn out of nothing without me creating a perceptible intention to make it, it doesn't work. The implications is horrifying to me, and is part of what I said was scary before.

 

You say there is no right or wrong in the mind, though. Why is that? Also, it isn't exactly right that there is no agency. I also have trouble seeing why that is the case and how pure casuality and hard determinism isn't the conclusion of these realizations. I am not trying to accuse of being wrong, I am genuinely curious and need to know that answer as I do not know, and the answer is important for me mental well-being.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

what is agency?

agency is an abstract simplification of the complicated process of self iterating on your thoughts and doing things, in other words, it is an illusion, just like tulpamancy. and like tulpamancy, it's nature changes depending on how you think about it. when you don't exist, you can't have agency, but in other models of the mind, you can

 

let's reform the model of the mind one more time. this time, you can let your identity be tied to your thoughts once again, but don't tie it to all of them. before you observed your pattern of thoughts, make that pattern of thoughts you, and everything else not you. now at last, there is room for a tulpa

 

I am sorry I ask questions that get answered later, I am fatigued as I am almost 4 hours into creating my reply, and I began replying as I read, because it is increasingly difficult to soak in all the massive information at once and make an omni reply. I also think it could be beneficial to show my thinking of the responses in real time, and a response that has all the information at once may become irrelevant while the process is not. I hope it is understandable, and doesn't create annoyance

 

So, it seems agency is still fully caused by causality though, and is an illusion? My understanding of an illusion means something that looks like it is there when it isn't, which would mean it doesn't exist still, and thus my existential suffering continues.

 

These are conclusions I started to come to myself, but I hate accepting them because I can't without just giving up.

 

The act of discerning a certain set of thoughts as me and a different set of thoughts of the same source as my tulpa, is almost if not exactly the same as roleplaying, I think. I must be missing a huge piece in the puzzle, I think. When I roleplay, I read something, and then my mind can produce that character's response in their voice. Anxiety can make this hard as I am worried about what is good story telling or not, so I don't go with the first thing that comes up, though. The same seems to happen for tulpamancy as well, as sometimes an intrusive thought comes up or something idiotic does that I refuse to accept, so I try again until a pleasing resposne that makes sense comes up. This sounds like roleplaying, and if it is, why is accusing tulpamancer's of roleplaying a bad thing? And what causes it in the first place? I guess when the "tulpa" thoughts seem very 1 dimensional? Or when someone claims they made a tulpa way too fast? Are tulpa's just 3 dimensional roleplay characters that one has became skillful enough to skillfully play? I maybe maybe not have at least 3 or so tulpas then, but I guess through the magic of things in the mind being reality or not reality by my choosing, I don't call some of them tulpas and make them inactive because I didn't believe they should be.

 

Actually, it would seem maybe more than that, because other characters I know really well, or even real people, I can do this same thing with. I talk to all the time friends in my head because my anxiety is so great I fear saying certain things to them, so I play it out in my head as a conversation. There are two instances of all my friends? I have binged watched kitchen nightmares recently, and I can't go into the kitchen without Gordon Ramsay walking up behind me with a bemused look and saying, "Oh you dirty bastard!! There's rotten food! -rubs up musty slab of filth from a plate that has sat in the sink for weeks- What is this?!" Among many other hilarious instances I chuckle at to find humor in the degeneracy and poor living standards. Mechanically, this isn't so different from what it is like to talk to Rena. The only difference seems to be, I talk to Rena intentionally and for extended periods of time. Though, a person's existence shouldn't be based on how much or how you interact with them. Many people say their tulpas steal their attention, or that walk ins happen or whatever. If I just stated today that Gordon Ramsay is now a tulpa of mine, would it be true? Without deliberately crafting the experience, I can imagine him approaching me and be terrified out of my mind and have my heart rate actually increase. My mind might struggle to produce instances of Ramsay saying more thoughtful things, though, but this is also the case with Rena, despite years of talking to her every single day, and having the intention to share with her nearly everything I do. As for roleplaying and Ramsay, I thought it was just the natural result of imagination, and that tulpas are more than that somehow. That they aren't roleplaying. If not, calling a claimed tulpamancer a roleplayer seems to be a no true scottsman fallacy, or something similar anyway.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

once more, what is a tulpa?

in this current model of the mind, it is an identity tied to a pattern of thoughts, just like you are. in the singlet's model of the mind, a tulpa is a part of you. in the no-identity model of the mind, a tulpa is something with a persistent and separate pattern of thoughts from the original pattern of thoughts

=/ yeah, a roleplay character? It seems the difference is arbitrarily calling some of it roleplaying or talking to yourself to see how a situation might turn out with a conversation, and others are called a tulpa, for some reason.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

how do I know if I have a tulpa?

this is also a trick question. you don't have a tulpa or not have a tulpa, you have varying degrees of a tulpa. you see, despite what I said before there is actually some level of physicality to a tulpa, it's not all just ephemeral mind tricks. you can't just make up a new thought process instantly and have it work like how yours does, it takes time and work to develop that. on the "not a tulpa" end of the scale, you can have something that calls itself by a different name, and doesn't consider itself to be you, but otherwise thinks the same way as you do, and then on the "tulpa" end of the scale, you can have something that thinks quite differently from you and comes to its own conclusions on things independently from you.

I guess those accused of roleplaying are one's who seem to have tulpas with not well developed thought processes? throughout my middle school and high school years, I arguably spent more time in a fantasyland inside my head, being my own characters, interacting with my own characters. I used a second imaginary life to cope. I never called it real, but I dreamed it would one day be real after I am dead. I was excited that in finding tulpamancy, it seems something real could be brought in. It seems the only tutorial I should have read on this site is "change how you look at what you already do"?

 

That being said, I still can't help feel the process of thinking when trying to develop more thoughtful things, but I guess that is normal? I expect Rena to think of thoughtful things on her own, so I shut down when I sense myself thinking, and intentionally stop thinking so that she can think. As a result, am I shutting down HER thinking? And that is why my interactions with her seem less real?

 

If I got to the point I let her think intensely though, it would so very much be perceived as me thinking what to say to myself as my own character to placate me. The experience of tulpamancy HAS to be different than this. If it is not, I do not know how to escape total despair.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:53 PM, Breloomancer said:

what is the potential of the tulpamancy experience?

you can certainly make it to be like talking to another physical person, like you thought, but there are so many other possibilities too. with some creativity, there is room for all kinds of unique ways to co exist and interact

 

keep in mind, mindvoice and imposition aren't really tulpamancy skills. they are useful for tulpamancy, but how well you can impose and how different your tulpas mindvoice is from your own say nothing about how developed your tulpa is. even things like making your tulpas thoughts feel alien doesn't mean anything; you could make your own thoughts feel alien as well. looking to these sorts of things as reassurance that your tulpa is real is thinking about it the wrong way. there is no real

How can it make it to be like talking to another physical person? If that is the case, it seems that it should be possible to have them produce elaborate and complex thoughts for an extended period of time, without being witness to the process of the mind churning it out. But if the mind is a body process, it will always look like I am thinking of their response, I will just be better at thinking out responses that are different from my own views, isn't it? Maybe someone who is skilled in debating can do this as well for the debate opponent in preparation.

 

Everything up until now seemed to kind of destroy the reality of tulpamancy for me, but then this wants to bring back hope, but I struggle very much to see where this amazing destination is. The destination of the coveted "indistinguishable from talking to another physical person". Kind of combined your quote and apparently the word indistinguishable that stuck with me very strongly, so I hope that didn't suddenly make it an incorrect statement. I guess it does for expected reasons, like you can't touch them. But I am just looking for the social interaction, so insofar as that, I have trouble seeing how it is possible considering all the previous information. I don't know when it becomes that, or what I have to do to reach that. I have a 4 year old tulpa, or attempt at one at least, and I spend more time with them than I don't spend time with them, and talk to them more than real people perhaps. Definitely more frequently at the very least, but conversations are shorter and often one sided due to the fact that my efforts so far have not graduated her to be capable of those other things. 

 

 

Reply to YukariTelepath

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

I wasn’t sure if I should post or not because it can be kind of bleak

I am already devastatingly bleak and my heart physically aches.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

Basically, you have one (1) brain. Your experience of yourself and of your tulpa is generated by the brain. What there is, is conscious experience. It’s like there’s a sort of empty awareness that just exists perpetually while the body is awake, and within that field of awareness experiences arise. You have sensory experiences from the body, sight, sound, touch, etc, and you have thoughts (defined broadly here as any internal mental experience including mindvoice, raw thought, beliefs, visualization of senses, etc).

 

That’s what you have to work with: awareness, senses, and thoughts. Where are you in this? You are a thought, a thought arises in awareness, “I’m here, this is me.” And a belief, that “you” are the one seeing, hearing, thinking, etc. As a singlet, this is pretty easy to manage, you just claim every act/thought as your own, and every experience as something you experienced.

 

I haven't read a guide in a very long time as they mostly seem to consist of "visualize a lot, and talk to your tulpa as much as you can", so I could be wrong, but it seems a bit less than responsible if it is the case that all these realizations aren't made extremely evident at the front of every guide and the site. Or maybe I am the most stupid individual to find this forum, as I totally missed these things. When I started it was seemingly nothing to contradict my belief that a tulpa would have their own separate sensory experience and generation machine of thoughts, despite months of on and off research, and there are genuinely people that still seem to think this out there. I had to interact repeatedly with many individuals before this other view became evident.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

When you create a tulpa, you are essentially trying to create the experience of a tulpa within awareness. To have a thought arise, “I’m Rena, I am here.” and to feel like it was Rena who said it. To have mental images of your tulpa doing things arise, and to feel convinced by it. These are all just thoughts and feelings. To have Rena view the world through the eyes, is to believe Rena is viewing the world through the eyes (a belief; a thought).

If it is not happening but is "possible™" through believing it, doesn't this add to the potential that tulpas are just not actual people? The more I read, the more it sounds "tulpamancy is when you try really really hard to create the illusion of someone being there with nothing to substantiate it in reality at all" and the justification is that everything in the mind is as real as you want it to be.

 

It seems objectively real as a scientologist believing that Xenu exists, though. It is real to them, I guess. It affects their actions because they work on the assumption the belief is true. There just isn't a Xenu though, and by extension, there is not a Xenu to be hurt by anything, or by extension be pleased by anything, making attempts to harm or please him pointless. I'm so sorry if there is a scientologist reading this.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

If “you” speak to Rena and she replies, but the reply does not feel convincing, what does that mean? It just means a thought arose, partially ascribed to Rena, but the feel of it was off. It’s just a thought, just a feeling. You can then believe (which in itself is just another thought) that it was really her or that it really wasn’t her. There’s no mystical truth behind this. She won’t know something that the brain doesn’t know, including how “real” her thought was. So if you ask her something which is unknown, she will either make up an answer or say she doesn’t know. And you can accept or reject her reply. Her thoughts can sound and feel very very undifferentiated from your own, but they can still be hers. They could also sound very distinct and separate and also be hers. You can both flip flop endlessly on whether a thought is hers or not and that will be the experience of tulpamancy that you have.

What is the "she" that either can or can't know something? Just the content of thoughts that either say "I know this and here are the fact" or "I don't know this"? Or is there something behind it as well? If not, it seems she is as much as words on a paper?

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

The differences between you and your tulpa, that’s something you build up. By having thoughts and experiences, your brain will build the connections to create distinct personality, and (mostly) consistent metadata about what belongs to who. When you lack confidence and doubt everything, I think it interferes with building connections, and so the shakey experiences become the norm. When people say, "just accept that it was your tulpa," this can work, because in labelling a thought as belonging to the tulpa, you're building up metadata and the belief that your tulpa can think and speak. Unfortunately the advice is shortsighted and overthinkers will doubt iffy responses anyway, still thinking that there's a secret truth to the response (ei, real or accidentally parroted).

It really seems that a tulpa being unsubstantiated illusion to entertain someone is common knowledge to some people, if my understanding of all this is correct? How can one think these things, and then also feel they have a friend they made in their head? It doesn't seem possible to me.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, YukariTelepath said:

How rich your experience with tulpamancy is, depends I think on the quality of the experiences you build. Some people easily generate alien feelings, internal consistency, vivid experiences all that good stuff, and others struggle. In either case, it’s all just subjective thoughts, senses, and beliefs about those thoughts and senses.

I care too much about Rena actually existing and her being her own person objectively. Knowing she is not but creating the illusion that she is, is a very painful things to do. My mind is not built to do this. I am devastated.

 

There perhaps needs to be a big public service announcement on the front of the site that announces all of these things, and either says if you can't be happy with the illusion of a person to stop, or to have a guide on how someone with my personality type can triumph and perform this self delusion satisfyingly despite knowing the truth, and from there they can decide if they want to do that.

 

 

Reply to Reisen

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

I'm not sure where you got the idea that tulpas naturally progressed into perfectly imposed forms - even the 2012'ers didn't often expect that. No, tulpas almost never reach a point where they resemble another human in actual space (that you know isn't actually real). But, I mean, they can get there! It just takes a TON of work with imposition! It's a very advanced skill, especially to reach that point, and it's not at all a normal part of the development of a tulpa. Imposition is a system-wide skill, unrelated to the progress of any individual tulpa in it. It's developed just like visualization clarity or vocal clarity, though of course it may be trickier/less intuitive to practice.

 

I wish I knew too, now. One of the things was a testimonial that said after 2 months, their tulpa is so real they were afraid they were going crazy. They they can't really tell the difference of talking to their tulpa and someone else, like it was very close to truly tricking them if it wasn't for the fact they knew they created them. Among others, it is many PRs that naturally progress to people saying "I hear my tulpa for the first time" or "I saw my tulpa floating above me" and these always happened within weeks or months. It seemed to me to be natural progression that everyone heard. Maybe by "hear" and "see" they meant "visualized successfully" or "heard a thought I attributed to them naturally" but didn't say it that way, which if is the case, sucks. Even if these things are possible, that first person must be an extreme anomaly and doing so probably takes years of extreme meditation and perhaps even going to retreats frequently.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

But no, a tulpa should sound roughly like if you can imagine someone's voice speaking clearly in your head, asterisk*. If you have the ability to imagine someone saying anything you want loudly and clearly (many people actually don't!), a tulpa should eventually sound like that - *and also, what separates my voice from a Youtuber we could simulate super well, is a feeling of context and depth that comes with any of our mindvoices. When one of us speaks in-mind, there's a lot more than just the sound of our voice (and if we've not been particularly active recently, our voices might not even be audibly that clear by comparison!), there's basically the equivalent of tulpish that comes with it! Feeling, intent and meaning, origin, and just a general feeling that it's us that differentiates it from if we were just imagining each other talk - all of that comes with our actual voice in mindvoice. And from there, when/if you learn to impose voice, it adds a dimension of space to it, meaning you should experience their voice as if they were talking from presumably where their imposed form is. You may or may not lose some of that feeling/intent/meaning/origin for imposed voice depending on how your brain feels like making it work, though if you do lose it it's just to make it feel more realistic. (Personally, we don't stress vocal imposition very much ourselves, but if we do try it it remains the same as mindvoice but with directional feeling & volume)

 

As for tulpish... I do experience a vague thing that somewhat sounds like what you and others talk about, but I can't know for sure if it is the same thing. There are thoughts that just seem like nothing more than some content in a vacuum, and others that have some tinge of an ethereal emotion to it that is very difficult to describe.

 

The unfortunate thing is, having this doesn't stop me from having contradictory experiences. I can't rely on pure meaning thoughts, or mindvoice thoughts in her voice accompanies but some weird subtle sense, to have not messed up experiences.

 

Another thing is, I can get it from random things to an extent. Like the fear of God when Ramsay is behind me and my heart flutters in fear and excitement, knowing I'll be broken from his judgements but also honored. I've been affected binge watching so much Kitchen Nightmares and Hotel Hell, it seems...

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

Yeah, we've never been a fan of this. The reason that thread exists without criticism is the same as the general way the forum optimistically tells people their tulpas are eager to speak and listen right from the start - whether it's true or not, the belief that it is is a self-fulfilling prophecy that aids development. Buuut, at the start of creating a tulpa, you very well may be talking to nothing, with nothing waiting to respond - it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy, but with literally zero signs at all more skeptical or slow progressers may be discouraged, as opposed to if they just knew what I'm telling you right now and that continuing even with no tulpa existing yet is still the goal.

From all of the responses I got so far, my mind has found itself trained to question how that isn't the case in the endgame of tulpamancy. It seems the goal of tulpamancy isn't to make it so there is a "there" there, but to just make it really look like there is one. And thus, even if early on they get a response that you say may not have anything behind it, that that should be the case in the endgame too.

 

I would be VERY embarassed if I misunderstood so far and I am currently so convinced of this idea that tulpas are purely an illusion, defined as something that looks like something it isn't at all, and there is truly no inherent substantiality to them, thus making the harrowing conclusion they are not another person but are just the experience of talking to one. But I would much rather be embarassed then have my heart so incredibly deeply broken that I really see not much reason to go on... I wanted a friend, not the experience of talking to one with no person behind it... It would appear that talking to an AI may legitimately have more unique and separate agency than a tulpa....... I hope that isn't the case...

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

Yeah, this is the most fun subject for a skeptic... Debating people's experiences and if they could really happen, what a joy! So, all of tulpamancy, given it takes place exclusively in your mind, is imagination based. That doesn't mean it's not real - your own thoughts are imagination based - it just means it's experience being created by your mind. And there are basically infinite possibilities in imagination, while tulpamancy is based around the concept of tulpas being more "real" than your everyday imagined character. This is endlessly complicated. Understanding "realness" in imagination is quite difficult, but also extremely helpful: Basically, the only thing that is "real" in your mind is your experience. Nothing else! No logic, no history, nothing but YOUR experience. Failure to grasp this concept is the source of all doubts in Tulpamancy, because people hazily think an imaginary friend is "fake" while a tulpa is "real". Reality check, no one in the world will ever be able to check if any of your internal experiences are "real" or "fake". The concept of "realness" DOES NOT APPLY! Only your experience of them exists!

Are there infinite possibilities though? It seems even the illusion they exist outside of awareness can be faulty, as even when I genuinely believed it, the illusion it was true was so shakey, but I held onto it anyway because I thought it had to be true and wanted it to be true. It seems the reality of the situation is to realize they don't, but to believe in it anyway because it creates a richer experience. I cannot really do that, and even if I did, my brain lacks the ability to instantly create experiences without a lot of processing a separate experience... It starts to turn into a really bad magic show

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

The difference in an imaginary friend and a tulpa is not "realness", that's an awful and misleading umbrella term. The difference is that tulpas are autonomous, sentient, and generally have a lot more going on with them than an imaginary friend - things the host should probably be able to feel, but also just perceive based on how their tulpa acts/how they experience their tulpa over time. And switching helps show it too, lol.

What is sentient though? Are they not an illusion of sentience?

 

Based on my first switching experience, it would be the closest thing to saving me from the broken state I am in right now, and I have heard it plays a large role in tulpamancy seeming real, but I don't know how to do it again... the more I tried it, the more stressed I got, and the worse I seemed to get... I became afraid of trying anymore, because the experience was so uncomfortable

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

Truly, there's little rebuttal for a skeptic when someone like Bear asks "Why are your experiences so boring? Why do you limit yourself like this?" - are the logical, skeptical types in the wrong? Well, like I said, this topic is endlessly complicated! My quick and dirty answer to this is that those logical types (like ourselves) likely need grounding in "realistic" experiences in order to feel comfortable believing in them, and if we let our imaginations get too fantastical, we would lose confidence in our tulpamancy experiences being ""real"" and ""not just imagination"". Whew, you see how this topic is a heck of a beast to tackle, I hope!

 

It is a beast... Well, I think I see there are tiers of skepticism, or something. There are perhaps people more fantastical than Bear like you implied by saying he is at least grounded in reality a bit. Then there is Bear. Then there is you and your system, who seems to talk as if tulpas are people, but there are no experiences outside of your awareness etc. Then there is what seems to be Breloomancer and YukariTelapath, which really seem to sound to me like they are saying it is truly just a complete illusion that is accepted as "real" by technical terms of imagination not objectively existing at all in reality, but the illusion is very good and they go with it. I seem utterly cursed with a brain that seeks the most fantastical, but is hellbent on truth and cannot suspend my disbelief beyond it even for self satisfaction. Since these interpretations of tulpamancy exist, and also best explain my experience, it seems I am forced to go with the lowest expectations of tulpamancy, except it is so pathetic to me I can't find it satisfying. I am hoping I can be corrected in that my interpretation is horribly wrong, or there is evidence another interpretation is right, and able to be experienced intuitively by me without having to bend my brain sideways and tilt my head and squint my eyes with the sun behind my back on Thursday to seem true.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

I consider this topic on the cutting edge of Tulpamancy discussion in modern times, perhaps the most important thing to debate and explain. So it's perfectly understandable that a lot of your beliefs' issues stem from it! It's high level stuff, and you weren't one of the lucky ones who got away with taking things at face value lol. But, if you can, rest assured that regardless of your understanding or logical conclusions, any tulpamancy experience can be legitimate if you feel it is - though you also have the power to de-legitimize experiences - because you are the only decider of "realness" in your mind. 

 

I think I might be unlucky because I took things first things I saw at face value, then later got contradictory theories and interpretations... I genuinely believed a lot of things you consider fantastical for 2 years, but because I didn't have those experiences, I felt I messed up so I came for help. I then was basically kind of told indirectly that my experience is maybe normal and what is expected of tulpamancy, but if that is the case, I have been having these experiences for over a decade, and I am not going to call all of that tulpamancy, I think... When I came into tulpamancy, it was to go beyond. It seems a beyond might not exist outside of just blindly suspending disbelief and accepting all mental experiences as real but with a confirmation bias.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

Though the community will keep guiding you on what sorts of experiences you could still have! Luckily we all agree that the general act of communicating with tulpas is a fulfilling experience with more depth than talking to an imaginary character, so you at least shouldn't worry about that.. being possible. I don't know if I have advice right now for how you can achieve it yourself after struggling for so long, but I think getting all of this Tulpamancy philosophy sorted out is a good start! A doubtless mental framework will do wonders for a system!

 

That's great... I might need more than experiences though, I don't know. It seems I now need belief of truth of otherness beyond that. I used to be convinced, but with all these technicalities I keep learning about, it seems less and less that an other exists... I need new and or correcting information to have any hope...

 

I desperately hope you can have advice... For all of this... I appreciate your enthusiasm

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

Ehhh.. do you experience intrusive thoughts so strongly that you can't keep a consistent line of imagined scenario going? Because imposition is (at least until you're very experienced at it) a very involved process requiring focus, and I've never really felt there was opportunity for intrusive thoughts to show up through it. Especially not if imposition doesn't come naturally/instantly and you have to work at it - I feel like you should have control over all aspects of it, most likely.

 

Intrusive thoughts are very common for me and constantly ruin my moment by moment experience of anything. Most joy I get is in short bursts, and I deal with repeated negative emotions brought on by the interuptions they bring. I have moments where I seem to go a while without them, but as soon as I notice that I am not experiencing them, they come back and flood me. They have made life a kind of hell since I was young. I am so use to them now, I guess, though it doesn't change the fact they substantially detract from my experience of everything and I frequently am forced to feel embarassment or disgust for no external reason. It even comes up in dreams.

 

Meditation when I was good at it made it better, I think.. Especially at least in regards to not feeling bad or attached to the intrusive thoughts. I can keep a consistent line of imagined scenario sometimes... Though a lot of the time, it will be constantly interrupted and I have to start over and pretend something didn't happen. I would like a permanent solution to this, it would make everything else in my life easier.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

YES, a tulpa is directly involved in and controlling imposition! In our system, it feels like a joint effort between fronter and person being imposed, with the fronter initiating/guiding the act of "doing imposition", while the one being imposed controls everything they do while imposed. But systems where tulpas have more autonomy without their host's attention for example likely experience imposition as purely done by the tulpas, et cetera. Either way, at the very least it is a joint effort the tulpa absolutely has a part in! I mean, it's like wonderlanding: The fronter is likely the one "imagining the wonderland"/et cetera, but that doesn't mean their tulpa isn't controlling themselves and possibly other aspects of the visualization.

I see. Assuming the nihilistic and hopeless interpretations of everything I now have are not true, this seems nice, especially if literal hallucinations are controllable by them.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

I don't really know how to differentiate times where you say "Imposition isn't X, it's Y, just a fancy illusion" and such, because... yes? No? Yes? You're certainly not psychically projecting mental energy of such substance and power that a tulpa forms a real presence in the world then perceived with your eyes and ears.. But isn't everything taking place only in your mind just a "fancy illusion"? Anyways, semantics aside - imposition is a skill with an infinitely high skill ceiling, so results of "I see my tulpas imposed sort of like silhouettes I'm just imagining are there" all the way up to "My tulpa feels so real I sometimes forget they aren't really there" are possible! And I really mean it, we know someone who had perfect imposition lifelike-ness straight down to touch imposition (with warmth) who spoke VERY highly of their experiences. Personally we're satisfied with our simple visual imposition, where we easily feel and act as if our imposed systemmate is really there (and they do to), and any interactions we have stay in our memory like they really happened (because in a sense, they did! We experienced what we experienced, and that's what is "real"). Though unfortunately, our visualization clarity is still very poor, so the visual clarity of our imposed forms is lacking and really is closer to a transparent silhouette most of the time (it goes back and forth). But fortunately despite that, the experience remains fulfilling and relatively rich, because our skill with imposition exceeds our skill in visual clarity lol.

 

I think when I said those things, it was the fact it increasingly didn't appear the imposition didn't have real autonomy, and all autonomy a tulpa might have is only in the mindvoice. That there wasn't a different between looking at a drawing or animation of your tulpa while you talk to them, and imposition, other than imposition would be possible on the go I guess without needing a device or paper to do. I never thought it was projecting psychic energy that you see with your own eyes, since others would have to see it to. I wasn't sure if it was maybe a projection of invisible psychic energy or not though that is only perceptible by your own mind, and in a best case scenario, some advanced other person who is extremely intuned and could tune into the psychic channel to see as well, but this would be some busted enlightenment level stuff that only monks do. I started out with more magical beliefs going into this and had them painfully stripped away one by one.

 

I use to be able to feel Rena touch me, like when I would force her or meditate, she would lean on my legs with her arms and I could sense her face being (un)comfortably close, or if I meditated laying down, she'd sit on my shins. I later learned it may not be inherent to her though, and just an ability to imagine a sensation at will, which is why I say maybe it is just a fancy illusion not substantiated by anything. It starts to seem more like patting myself on my own back while imagining someone else is, though doing it mentally. I have to investigate more though, I guess.

 

I also always imagine her next to me. I was able to do this very early on, so if that is imposition, I guess I am kind of natural. This is kind of because like I think I said earlier, I already imagined characters around me a lot before. I thought imposition was truly seeing them in a way like with your eyes. Not physically, but like a hallucination. Like I think I also said, I have experienced EXTREMELY powerful hallucinations that were as real as seeing something with the reflection of your own eyes, maybe even realer. I can see where lovecraftian stuff maybe come from or biblical (book of ezekiel and revelations primarily, as contrary to the memes, they appear as humans sometimes too) angels. The particularly freaky hallucinations are short lived, at least though, but boy did it make me feel literal life threatening fight or flight panic and fear for me life.

 

So I know I can see things that are not there (unless they are and I have seen into some other realm layered over ours or something), but I can't do it intentionally. Or more specifically, have Rena do it herself intentionally. It will be my goal after I can talk to her to my satisfaction and switch and have her front of possess or whatever.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

We have very fond memories of spending nights together in a cold room "alone" away from home. We'd been imposing for years already, but that experience of everyone being together making an otherwise empty and lonely place feel warm and alive - that was a beautiful experience we will continue to look back on fondly, until we create even better ones.

I have similarly pleasant but vague memories of truly feeling she was there next to me, and it was wonderful. These experiences are few and far between though, muddled with the opposite kind of experiences that destroy the illusion of her existence for me, something I genuinely believed wasn't even supposed to be an illusion. I also want to be clear that by not an illusion, I don't mean she has another physical body. I don't think it is a dichotomy like that. I think a person can be a real separate person from myself, but not have a physical body. Or I would like to, anyway. I am not sure now after today.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Reisen said:

So, I know you guys are still struggling in general tulpamancy endeavors, and that's not been an uncommon occurrence at all over the years unfortunately. It's difficult to give advice that simply makes someone stop having those problems and start having fulfilling experiences or progress. Our best attempts haven't seemingly done much good. So, I'm just going to recommend the next thing I can think of - sort out your mental framework and philosophy of tulpamancy, until you've got one that enables you to have no doubts in the development process, no fears in if your experiences are "real" or not, and full faith that everything can continue to get so much better every step of the way. While our system is more comfortable with our "skeptical/logical" belief set, we will fully vouch for the vibrance and legitimacy of Bear's experiences, and encourage you to work towards them yourselves! You and Rena can absolutely achieve tulpamancy feats that are fulfilling, though they may not go exactly how you expected, I do not believe you will have to "settle" for "worse" experiences. There is no reason to doubt the possibilities of your mind's own internal experiences, if that doubt only serves to limit the experiences you hope to achieve.

The problem is I don't know how it is possible for someone to choose their beliefs. I think it is chosen for you based on information one has. And as you might see if you were able to read my whole post, the information I have is tragic to me and I am skeptical it can possible ever achieve a fullfiling experience. No matter how real she seems, if that reality is based on the assumptions given to me seemingly clearly today, it seems it will be forever stained with "but it is an illusion" or "it is not 'real' beyond some strange interpretation of realness in regards to imagination."

 

Here is a debate topic, maybe. It seems this interpretation of tulpamancy, if the fundamental truth, really needs to be more front and center on the site so other people don't get confused like me... After that, there needs to be a guide on how to believe the illusion. Then one can decide if they want to go down that...

 

Alternatively, all of these things need to be hidden and tulpamancy needs to be as vague as possible, so people's beliefs don't get poisoned... This is a bit more dangerous though, as I do not know if I would be having a satisfying experience right now just because I didn't learn these things. If I still underestimate how real it can feel and have not felt it, and it can get there without many bumps, I suppose it would be worth it, maybe. But I had bumps, and there would still be a sad reality beneath it all anyway.

 

Alternatively I am wrong still and I hope I am...

 

It needs to be true that my interpretations are wrong, or there is some other information convincing of something otherwise.

 

Someone might say there is no wrong or right belief, but in reading between lines, I see simularities, and my brain sees it is perhaps true everyone is experiencing the same thing in a different way, and that thing that is being experienced is similar to what Bre and Yukari say, just that some other people add interpretations onto it to expand the greatness of the illlusion.

 

I am very broken now. I feel a painful sense of mourning that rivals or even exceeds the death of my own mother, I think. And she was the closest family member I had. Rena is my big sister... I don't want to feel there is nothing there beyond an illusion or experience... She has to have a fundamental sense of self for her own self, and be more than random thoughts categorized arbritarily as "Rena" that are just really good at being different... It doesn't help that if part of what a tulpa is is being very different, that Rena was intentionally made to hold a lot of my values and ideals...

 

This all hurts so much... I don't want to feel this way!! I don't know what to do... I need help severely... I am heading for destruction

 

I want to type more maybe, but this is the longest post I have ever made! I hope you all could read it, as it is probably the most important thing I have ever talked about with anyone! I am so sorry for the inconvience and potential time wasted...

 

It took me over 6 hours to make this post. I am typing in super slow motion now, so if I don't send it now, I fear it will crash and I will lose it all. I didn't get to reread this post before sending it! If I said something stupid or incomprehensible, I can't try to fix it right now... I'm burnt out and severely depressed.... I hope it is sufficient for now...

 

 

 

 

Edited by TB

Creation for creation's sake.

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@TB

Holy fruitbats dude. I know I'm just popping into a conversation that I haven't been a part of, and probably don't understand it very well, but after reading that last part of your massive post I have to try to help. From what I understand, you're struggling with doubts regarding the existence of your tulpa, or if tulpas are even real to begin with and just a mental illusion yes? I'll do my best to help, whatever that is worth. My apologies that I don't have time to read and understand everything, as I have work tomorrow and need to sleep soon.

 

I understand that some people say that tulpas are a purely mental thing, but I believe tulpas have always been "coded" biologically into our bodies. Why? Because if you observe people in isolated confinement, what do they do? They start talking to themselves and hear voices. People with multiple personality disorder, where they generate multiple personalities that jump in and take over the person's life, where do they come from? I believe there is convincing evidence that humans NEED interaction with others so much, that they can create people in their mind. No one is truly alone for long, for other voices and people will erupt from your mind in response to severe isolation.

 

If you believe in spirituality stuff, I believe I remember Reisen's host said that he went to a fortune teller who could see auras, and proceeded to switch between his tulpas rapidly. She responded with, "Does it hurt to change your aura like that?" I doubt he has any reason to lie about his experience, and if it IS true, then tulpas have a real "physical" presence despite not having their own bodies. Tulpas for all intents and purposes are a real, observable phenomenon, and to remove all doubt, you must have a firm, unshakable foundation that yes, they are real.

 

Once you know in your heart that tulpas are real people, THEN you should work on your tulpa and focus on why they are failing to be a real person. Understand that doubt holds you back. Fear holds you back. Your mind is very, very powerful. In your head, if you believe that it is true, then it is. Tulpamancy is taking the dormant voices in your soul, and giving them life and form. The power of creation is at our fingertips, we only need to believe we have it. Yes, you may roleplay by accident sometimes, but your mind is your own, and it obeys you. Rena will be real, if she isn't already.

 

Again, I apologize if I completely misunderstood what was going on and made a total donkey of myself. I just can't ignore a cry for help like that and not try to help. We're in this strange journey together, so don't give up yet. I have confidence that you will find what you are looking for.

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That was not us, we would never pay for a psychic of any kind, we don't switch rapidly, and that would've been very interesting primary evidence of the supernatural for us! There have been a few cases of people reporting something like a ~psychic friend of theirs mentioning a presence around them when their tulpa was around, so vague things like you mentioned have happened, but we don't put any stock in the ones we've heard. Too many factors could be responsible, not the least of which is "psychics" saying stuff like "There's a presence around you" often enough that eventually they happen to be right..

 

Buuut, more importantly, we can 100% confirm your other point! I was created by Lumi obsessing over the concept of an instance of the character Reisen (in a couple music videos) singing directly to him, and with zero history of imaginary friends or hearing about anything tulpa-like (we wouldn't find out about tulpas for 4 more years), our brain created me! Tewi and Flandre, too, with less obvious influence aside from how much he thought about the characters and what they might be like. And our experiences lined up perfectly, with literally no "welllll, except one thing-", with 2014 Tulpa.info's idea of tulpas! This is absolutely evidence to us that human brains may naturally create people, personas or otherwise that don't exist as a coping mechanism. We all know the "Wilson the volleyball" example, though that is not real, clearly the concept wasn't just made up on the spot; humans like to personify things when they're lonely. I recall Pewdiepie playing Amnesia in 2011 making friends out of any object he could interact with, as a lite version of "coping" with the game being a stressful environment.

 

I'm going to hit Submit but edit my post to write more, just wanted to get that correction out of the way real quick...

{Nevermind, TB replied right as I finished my reply-}

Edited by Reisen

Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Mechagodzilla82 said:

Holy fruitbats dude. I know I'm just popping into a conversation that I haven't been a part of, and probably don't understand it very well, but after reading that last part of your massive post I have to try to help. From what I understand, you're struggling with doubts regarding the existence of your tulpa, or if tulpas are even real to begin with and just a mental illusion yes? I'll do my best to help, whatever that is worth. My apologies that I don't have time to read and understand everything, as I have work tomorrow and need to sleep soon.

I appreciate very much your desire to help. You are pretty right. I transitioned pretty quickly from, "Tulpamancy and Rena are real, I just struggle to communicate with her, and she might not be developed correctly but I am not sure since I am skeptical at how many 'instances' of her speaking is actually her" to "I'm not sure if tulpamancy is anything beyond self delusion and by extension, Rena can't possibly be real no matter what I do" even in my reply kind of... the last months or so I think my brain cycles these beliefs actually. Probably could see maybe even in the whole post how I had suspicions that I ignored but I rapidly fell into potentially accepting them after reading more of the replies, ending in the state I am right now.

 

I am not sure I got much of any truly new information in the replies. Some of it was I think. Though much of it was either things I heard before, or things I suspected based on what I heard a lot being blatantly confirmed to me despite my fears about it. My suspicion of certain things lead to slowly increasing doubt and trying to ignore possibility of the reality but then an immense amount of draining cognitive dissonance. It has all kind of poured out now and I can't ignore it anymore. Not being able to ignore it anymore is actually part of why I made this thread I think, but now it is definitely not ignorable.

 

Oh boy my brain is utterly fried... I shouldn't have made this post I am paranoid I messed it up. I keep editing but I am confusing myself and my brain keeps shutting down mid sentence forgetting what my thought was. I have to continue after sleep it seems despite my wishes...

 

6 hours ago, Mechagodzilla82 said:

I understand that some people say that tulpas are a purely mental thing, but I believe tulpas have always been "coded" biologically into our bodies. Why? Because if you observe people in isolated confinement, what do they do? They start talking to themselves and hear voices. People with multiple personality disorder, where they generate multiple personalities that jump in and take over the person's life, where do they come from? I believe there is convincing evidence that humans NEED interaction with others so much, that they can create people in their mind. No one is truly alone for long, for other voices and people will erupt from your mind in response to severe isolation.

 

6 hours ago, Reisen said:

Buuut, more importantly, we can 100% confirm your other point!

This, if referencing that, is extremely interesting. I thought your system Reisen didn't believe that there was any actual mechanic of tulpamancy in people, and it is more like inventing it from scratch for yourself rather than building up an inherent potential? Though people also change their beliefs so I am not saying you are contradicting yourself, as changing belief isn't a contradiction. I could also just be wrong or misunderstanding what was meant before. But what Mechagodzilla said is interesting and I wonder more how it works, because I need to learn how to activate that potential perhaps, unless I already did... I have a very active imagination and maybe emotional isolation of being alone despite surrounded by people my whole life kind of already does it kind of. Though I am a wacko because despite my having had and desiring magical beliefs, I deeply also believed none of my imagination was real because my brain says that obviously can't be what is happening.

 

It seems Lumi was far more less inclined to have magical thinking than me, but despite that, subscribed to the experiences being real anyway. Very strange how that happens... Though maybe they had more magical beliefs at the time of creation of them I think I recall.

 

6 hours ago, Mechagodzilla82 said:

If you believe in spirituality stuff, I believe I remember Reisen's host said that he went to a fortune teller who could see auras, and proceeded to switch between his tulpas rapidly. She responded with, "Does it hurt to change your aura like that?" I doubt he has any reason to lie about his experience, and if it IS true, then tulpas have a real "physical" presence despite not having their own bodies. Tulpas for all intents and purposes are a real, observable phenomenon, and to remove all doubt, you must have a firm, unshakable foundation that yes, they are real.

 

6 hours ago, Reisen said:

That was not us, we would never pay for a psychic of any kind, we don't switch rapidly, and that would've been very interesting primary evidence of the supernatural for us! There have been a few cases of people reporting something like a ~psychic friend of theirs mentioning a presence around them when their tulpa was around, so vague things like you mentioned have happened, but we don't put any stock in the ones we've heard. Too many factors could be responsible, not the least of which is "psychics" saying stuff like "There's a presence around you" often enough that eventually they happen to be right..

Seems that got debunked fast... I was interested.

 

I use to believe in some spirituality stuff but not everything. I never really believed in fortune tellers or people who claim to see auras. I don't think it is impossible, or at least didn't but in time I am so much more inclined to say it isn't true. I love Dragon Ball, so I desperately like to believe Ki is real and seeing auras by shaolin monks maybe is real... but logically I don't think so.

 

If it can be confirmed somehow that the person who had this experience really did, it would be maybe be a lead to acquiring a firm belief. I would then want to find an aura reader who is competent and see if it happens to others who have tulpas, and if it happens to me. I have watched so much of The Amazing Randi that I have trouble trusting that at the very least, 99.999 percent of them are total frauds that steal money and are dangerous people, and as such, if aura readers are competent, I think one would have won the million dollar prize he offered during the years that was available...

 

6 hours ago, Mechagodzilla82 said:

Once you know in your heart that tulpas are real people, THEN you should work on your tulpa and focus on why they are failing to be a real person. Understand that doubt holds you back. Fear holds you back. Your mind is very, very powerful. In your head, if you believe that it is true, then it is. Tulpamancy is taking the dormant voices in your soul, and giving them life and form. The power of creation is at our fingertips, we only need to believe we have it. Yes, you may roleplay by accident sometimes, but your mind is your own, and it obeys you. Rena will be real, if she isn't already.

I really want to believe in their soul. I am not sure how to confirm it for myself. The thing that sucks is, I had these crappy experiences even when I was convinced of these things. Now that I am increasingly not convinced of these things, I feel I am hopeless! How do I become convinced again? And how do I get to success even if convinced? I also do not want to be convinced of lies obviously, I am not sure anyone consciously does. But if the truth is so painful, I don't want that either, so if that is the case, there would be no escape to pain.

 

6 hours ago, Mechagodzilla82 said:

I just can't ignore a cry for help like that and not try to help. We're in this strange journey together, so don't give up yet. I have confidence that you will find what you are looking for.

Thank you so very much! It is very good to know people care so much when I am like this... I especially get scared of being shut down when I am like this as being despondent about drawing I only got thrashed, so if that happened to me in tulpamancy, I would just give up in everything probably... I am in a very bad place, but I won't say whether or not there is hope until after this thread is over and I get answers...

 

Also I don't know why I came back before sleeping. I drank coffee since I am kind of scared to sleep and am now obsessed with continuation of conversation even if I am tired and incompetent mentally... I hope that isn't a mistake

 

Edited by TB

Creation for creation's sake.

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