Gateway Systems and Soulbonds

[Moon Voilo]

3 minutes ago, ZenAndTheSloth said:

That's broadly inaccurate. Do you think schizophrenics or psychotics with religious ideations are not diagnosed with schizophrenia or psychosis? You do know I presume that OSDD specifically has a category for those whose identities has been changed via cult-like religious behaviour?

The criteria you are talking about do not exist in a vacuum, and they exist to protect regular religious experiences, which include dissociative events and other interesting events, including hallucinations from being clinicized because of how extremely common they are. They are considered as factors. All of this you would know, if you knew how diagnosis works.

 

Also, don't sit there are pretend "delusion" is a disorder in your country. It's either not, or you really do live in a place with no understanding of modern medical psychology. You are talking about a colloquial word at best.

Delusion isn't, delusional disorder is. I am not saying that. What I am saying is that in order for a delusion to be recognized as a delusion it has to not be a religion or spiritual belief.

 

What defines a regular religious experience according to you? Monotheistic religions? That would mean every pagan is delusional. Recognized religions? That would mean all christians or muslims in certain countries are delusional. What do you think about people who consider their gateway system to be a part of their paganism or even christianity?

[Ashley]

This site has treated the metaphysical side of thoughtforms very harshly in my opinion for the time we've been here, 2018-present. Words like confabulation and delusion were used often whenever anyone stepped outside the mainstream scientific basis as Bear described.

 

I don't see @ZenAndTheSloth's comments as disrespectful, you should have read some of the pushback we got in 2018-19. Those who pushed are now either gone or somewhat silent now at least to us. I think ZATS was pretty clearly being careful in their wording. Others, not so much but we're not triggered by that kind of naysaying anymore.

 

There are some who put religious understanding in the context of thoughtforms and we do that too, but if someone says they're atheist or non-spiritul or anti-metaphysical and it works for them, great! It just never worked for us. We're definitely a spiritual based system at this point. Call it a delusion if you want but we see it as an ultimately more useful and powerful way to share a life than to think we're all just soul-less personalities sharing a body. 

 

ZATS said:

 

I think we have generally reached the impasse wherein both of our points are fully made and it is essentially up to anyone reading to make their own conclusions.

 

This meme has been very useful today.

[/quote]

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ashley

[ZenAndTheSloth]

11 minutes ago, Moon Voilo said:

What I am saying is that in order for a delusion to be recognized as a delusion it has to not be a religion or spiritual belief.

No, you're bastardizing what the DSM-V says. Read the DSM-V and stop wasting my time.

 

12 minutes ago, Moon Voilo said:

What defines a regular religious experience according to you?

No, once again, this is an in context guide of how the DSM-V is used by psychologists. The source of the religious experience is irrelevant, religious experiences are broadly defined and tend to be non-disorderly. What would be unusual, say, is if someone had consistent negative hallucinations and intrusive thoughts that would classify as a disorder under the DSM-V criteria.

 

I'm not here to educate you on how diagnosis works. I'm telling you that you are uneducated on the topic. Go and read about it if you wish. Stop making this about my opinions. You literally don't know what you're talking about and are spouting misinformation.

 

Delusional disorder is a colloquialism for psychotic disorder, which is what you actually mean, by the way. And again, at no point did I say at all, that delusions were indicative of a psychotic disorder. I clearly explained what a delusion is. In fact if you would like, here is the dictionary definition from Oxford:
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Delusions, you may note, are typically described as a symptom. Symptoms for nearly all mental disorders exist in waking life for all people at some point, including dramatic ones like hallucinations and dissociative states.
 

[Moon Voilo]

1 minute ago, ZenAndTheSloth said:

No, you're bastardizing what the DSM-V says. Read the DSM-V and stop wasting my time.

 

No, once again, this is an in context guide of how the DSM-V is used by psychologists. The source of the religious experience is irrelevant, religious experiences are broadly defined and tend to be non-disorderly. What would be unusual, say, is if someone had consistent negative hallucinations and intrusive thoughts that would classify as a disorder under the DSM-V criteria.

 

I'm not here to educate you on how diagnosis works. I'm telling you that you are uneducated on the topic. Go and read about it if you wish. Stop making this about my opinions. You literally don't know what you're talking about and are spouting misinformation.

 

Delusional disorder is a colloquialism for psychotic disorder, which is what you actually mean, by the way. And again, at no point did I say at all, that delusions were indicative of a psychotic disorder. I clearly explained what a delusion is. In fact if you would like, here is the dictionary definition from Oxford:
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Delusions, you may note, are typically described as a symptom. Symptoms for nearly all mental disorders exist in waking life for all people at some point, including dramatic ones like hallucinations and dissociative states.
 

Bruh I've read the dsm-5 a lot. I pretty much know it off the top of my head. Maybe you should read the dsm-5. Gateway systems don't have hallucinations nor intrusive thoughts. Delusional disorder and psychotic disorder are two different diagnosises. Delusional disorder is what you are diagnosed with if you expirience delusions and they are not due to any other disorder. I'd know, I've been diagnosed with the disorder.

[ZenAndTheSloth]

You are completely misunderstanding what I am writing. I didn't at any point say gateway systems have hallucinations or intrusive thoughts.

 

Stop misusing the DSM-V to try and classify delusions. That isn't what the word means, and if you're referring to specific psychotic disorder it isn't relevant to the meaning of the word delusion. You're doing something as equally harmful as trying to reverse-classify all lapses in focus as ADHD. Not only are you misapplying the criteria - You shouldn't be using them at all, because they are diagnostic criteria and as you so eloquently put, you are not qualified to apply any sort of diagnosis.

 

You continue to sidestep the simple fact that I am calling all religions inherently delusional by hiding behind mental health, which is irrelevant - And that is a valid viewpoint. If you cannot handle that, I am not here to change your mind, and I will also not pretend that I see it as anything other than it is.

If you mistakenly believe anything about the physical world, you have a delusion. There's nothing else to say.

[Moon Voilo]

15 minutes ago, ZenAndTheSloth said:

You are completely misunderstanding what I am writing. I didn't at any point say gateway systems have hallucinations or intrusive thoughts.

 

Stop misusing the DSM-V to try and classify delusions. That isn't what the word means, and if you're referring to specific psychotic disorder it isn't relevant to the meaning of the word delusion. You're doing something as equally harmful as trying to reverse-classify all lapses in focus as ADHD. Not only are you misapplying the criteria - You shouldn't be using them at all, because they are diagnostic criteria and as you so eloquently put, you are not qualified to apply any sort of diagnosis.

 

You continue to sidestep the simple fact that I am calling all religions inherently delusional by hiding behind mental health, which is irrelevant - And that is a valid viewpoint. If you cannot handle that, I am not here to change your mind, and I will also not pretend that I see it as anything other than it is.

If you mistakenly believe anything about the physical world, you have a delusion. There's nothing else to say.

I am not applying any sort of diagnosis, you're doing that. You're saying that gateway systems are delusional. 

Also calling all religions inherently delusional is one, one hell of a bold take, and two, makes you sound like an edgy reddit atheist. 

 

And who are you to decide what is and isn't true about the physical world?

[ZenAndTheSloth]

The word delusional is not a diagnosis. You are the one applying the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-V to something; That's diagnosis. How many times do I have to repeat this for you?

[Ashley]

I may be totally wrong here, but this thread, such as it is, isn't about whether someone is delusional or not, it's also not about religion. 

 

This thread, it is my understanding, is about the treatment and handling of gateway systems specifically. This delusion banter is pretty far off topic. Farther, I'd argue, than the original reason this thread was split from its parent.

[Slipper]

   Humans all have delusions, but it is impossible to know for sure what they are as we are bound by a view of the world that is human... aka a biased one with a single, limited perspective to use. Many people outside of the tulpamancy community see us as delusional. In the context of religion, ultimately one is the correct one, but we have nothing other than faith to help pick the right one. These beliefs are mostly harmless.

 

   Delusions come in to play in psychiatry when they cause harm to the belief holder or those around them. Yes, that does include religious ones if they are deemed dangerous enough. People believing they're holy figures reincarnated isn't a completely fictional thing. I think the example about someone believing they are a victim of rape because of a headmate's experiences in canon would be considered harmful enough to require help.

 

   Soulbonds believing they are actually from their source material isn't inherently dangerous, just like us believing in our tulpas or our religious beliefs. But when it is causing distress or hurting others, it needs some form of intervention. I think we should support headmates who hold the belief that they are the character they appear as, but we also shouldn't encourage the belief if it is hurting them or their host. It would be akin to encouraging a man who thinks he could fly to jump off a cliff; sure, it could be true, but do we really want to take the risk if it's not?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Slipper
grammar

[Candlelight Society]

7 hours ago, ZenAndTheSloth said:

Also, don't sit there are pretend "delusion" is a disorder in your country. It's either not, or you really do live in a place with no understanding of modern medical psychology. You are talking about a colloquial word at best.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/delusional-disorder%3famp

https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder

 

I have no stakes in this argument but I was able to find this with a ten second Google search. If the facts of this being an actual diagnosis are in their favor it's in their favor regardless of opinion. This doesn't invalidate your statements of delusion as a common term but it does make this quoted statement wrong.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Michael Blackwater
Wording