The Possibility of Parrallel Processing

[Twice Sparked]

Wow, someone other than us independently preaching the "experience is neither real nor fake, it simply is" concept? Where've you been all these years?

 

I checked your post history a day or two ago and saw Lumi (whom you quoted while he was still named "Reisen", the name of one of our tulpas he uses online) discussing our "switching or not" with you and some others... that's old. You had good contributions to the topic.

 

I appreciate you and your views, and whatever contributions you make to the forum. Also, I like your name.

 

Edit: Aside from being ninja'd.. he is sort of right in that you didn't quite make a full point on this topic. I believe what you were going for was that the perceived experience of parallel processing is what's important, and not whether or not it's actually possible? If so, it's a nice take from an older member.. If not, I too am confused what you were going for. I was just too distracted by what you actually said to remember the topic at hand.

 

Buried in paperwork.

 

And yes, that's right. I think it's a bad question with a lot of fallacious assumptions about what we're doing, at least under the school I follow. But others go in different directions. I'm indifferent toward the metaphysics of tulpamancy generally, except in those areas where what people think they can accomplish is stifled.

 

Good to talk to you again. I hope you all are well.

[Ranger]

Tulpamancy is like a videogame. A tulpa’s actions, their voice, and their appearance all seem separate, like a videogame character and his environment, but they run on the same engine, are projections from a single source. So, questions about the possibility of parallel processing don’t make sense. What parallel? If you’re distracted, disinterested, or otherwise away from your tulpa, then you return to them and they tell you what they’ve been doing, it doesn’t make sense to doubt them, to make them doubt themselves, any more than it makes sense to say of an npc in a game “they weren’t really killing those villagers, they were bits in active memory.”

 

This was the only paragraph that touched on PP, and it was a small point in your thesis.

 

A host realizing that their ideal PP isn't happening and then starts to doubt Tulpamancy in general is a valid concern. I am from the school of psychological thought, and I believe your claim doesn't necessarily discredit PP for what it is. My question is "does PP actually exist in any form, and if it does how does it work?" or "If PP doesn't exist, then what are people experiencing?" The idea of "PP doesn't matter because it can lead to harm" seems to make this debate pointless.

 

I had more of a response to your post, but I realized it was off topic. I'm going to wait until this thread gets a reply first.

[Guest]

My experience of parallel processing is personal and doesn't meet the harsh definition that is currently adopted. (Which people argue tooth and nail has not changed.) Well i say the definition is off or the interpretation of what was done is off. I'm beginning to understand the original concepts of switching and am close to achieving that if I haven't already. Repeatability then my interpretation will come.

 

Thankfully i'm a lot stronger to deflect the teeth and nails today than I was months ago, so I can actually continue and not be limited by perceived gates. The ability to multi-stream is apparently hard to do, though I never thought so. If it comes down to a speed cycling rather than tandem, so be it, I honestly can't tell, and I am truly the only experiencer that matters in my equations.

 

Yet again I see that my initial thoughts were more useful to advancement than the limitations of standardization. I still assert that my mindframe and perspective on the notions are repeatable given the learner can unlearn some restrictive mindsets.

 

This does not require debate, I'm only stating objectives and observations based on my experience.

[Twice Sparked]

 

This was the only paragraph that touched on PP, and it was a small point in your thesis.

 

A host realizing that their ideal PP isn't happening and then starts to doubt Tulpamancy in general is a valid concern. I am from the school of psychological thought, and I believe your claim doesn't necessarily discredit PP for what it is. My question is "does PP actually exist in any form, and if it does how does it work?" or "If PP doesn't exist, then what are people experiencing?" The idea of "PP doesn't matter because it can lead to harm" seems to make this debate pointless.

 

I had more of a response to your post, but I realized it was off topic. I'm going to wait until this thread gets a reply first.

 

You'd be right; I don't deny parallel processing is possible. Well, depending on how you're looking at it.

 

Three people now have said much of my post was in part off topic, so I'll have to insist it wasn't. Sometimes a topic can only be addressed if its framing is adjusted.

 

In this case, we should refer to the OP. I think his point is valid. From a psychological and neurological perspective, parallel processing seems dubious. At least from what I know, the brain doesn't multitask, it switches rapidly between tasks. The concept doesn't work in this perspective. But it's a particular way of conceptualizing tulpamancy. There are alternatives.

 

Afaikt, the kernel of parallel processing, what's important, is whether or not statements like "while I was x, my tulpa was doing y" can be true. We can give up on PP or water it down until it's meaningless, but I find this unsavory. I think it's better to keep the above sentence as PP's core, but couch the whole discourse in a hallucinatory frame. The statement remains true, as true as the statements "I was hallucinating that my tulpas did these things," "the npc was killing villagers," and "the npc was bits in active memory". Logical consistency is preserved, and we give up neither PP nor modern science.

[Ember.Vesper]

"While I was x, my tulpa was doing y" is absolutely the high level view of parallel processing. Whether this is possible, whether this is happening, whether this has been observed and identified, and what experiences appear to be this but aren't are important questions in science-oriented discussions of the phenomenon.

 

I don't view PP as that dubious from a neurological perspective. About 2.5% of the general population are "supertaskers" who are much better at multitasking than other people and whose brains have been shown to function more efficiently in fMRI. Systems with frequent PP-identified experiences are probably much more likely to be supertaskers than systems without.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201401/meet-the-super-taskers

 

Apart from that, different headmates using the same part of the brain differently at the same time may be rare to impossible, but using different parts for similar things may be achievable. For example, the right hemisphere homologue of Broca's area is not usually associated with language production and processing -- except in cases of auditory verbal hallucinations:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18854323

 

(A follow-up Asian study would be helpful. The American study suggests an association between right lateralization and negative emotional content, so a study conducted in a culture where AVHs are customarily benevolent would clarify whether that association is neurological or cultural.)

 

Bear's reports of auditory imposition as an additional simultaneous thought stream that doesn't interfere with mind voice suggests that a tulpamantic system might be able to learn to process language separately in the left and right hemispheres. And if that isn't PP, I don't know what is.

 

PP-identified experiences have been described many times on the forum. I don't know of any system that actually became skilled at parallel math, but thought hiding and independent wonderland activity have been with us from the beginning. We do not yet have the techniques to reliably distinguish between actual and perceived PP. And I maintain that both forms are equally valid experientially and equally desireable. But we don't need redefine PP to include confabulation any more than we need to "water it down" to include only trivial experiences. Confabulation is most likely a neurologically distinguishable process achievable and learnable by different techniques than other PP-identified experiences. Accepting it as a distinct process seems more likely to me to give some systems the necessary insight to make novel breakthroughs that advance the art of tulpamancy for everyone.

 

-Ember

[Guest]

It is somewhat rare to be able to control the audio hallucinations associated with altered states like hypnagogic and hypnopompic, as well as just in general in my survey of other systems. So, you're special if you can do it I suppose. Though they do overlap, it's not really anything useful because to talk to someone else, you don't get far by talking over each other.

 

As a novelty it's fascinating, in practice, two streams of audio (one clear, one clear only in certain states) doesn't do much for me beyond removing doubt that someone else is there, independent, and cognizant. I don't have those doubts anymore, so the only value is in giving testimony that it's possible.

 

The more interesting dual stream is doing something and wonderlanding at the same time, which for me, is my key to validating the "doing x while fronter is doing y" hypothesis. We have tested and practice it daily, whether the C word is invoked in order for some systems to rationalize their models is immaterial to us, that explanation doesn't fit our experience. Too much detail is occurring if it all has to occur through tulpish all at once when we meet up again. It's unnecessarily volumous at times.

 

I feel that they have their own neropathways, this isn't anything controversial to make this conclusion since it's generally accepted that memories have their own. These pathways can be co-active. I'm not saying it's me who is activating them co-actively, since there are at least four independent wills in here.

 

This model may or may not hold water, I'm not proficient in arguing such things successfully

[Ember.Vesper]

The hope is that full auditory imposition, in such systems as achieve it, is controllable and invocable at will. Hypnagogic/hypnopompic states are useless to us; thoughts we have in those states are so disoriented as to be nonsensical. Ember referenced you, Bear, only because of your report of experiencing simultaneous word streams. That was what rekindled my interest in auditory imposition.

 

The value for me in a system being able to generate simultaneous word streams is not communication, but thinking. It's dreadfully inconvenient to have to stop thinking altogether every time one of your headmates starts thinking. For months we couldn't even interrupt one another, though fortunately we're past that now. The existence of a right hemisphere homologue to Broca's area provides a slender neurological justification for parallel streams of articulate thought, access to which would improve my quality of life.

 

I don't know the limits of what confabulation can achieve. Less than a year ago, Ember's ex only remembered her current human life. Now she claims memories of thousands of years as an inhuman being on another world, as well as memories of multiple human lives. She no longer considers the sum total experiences of her current human life to be a significant contribution to her memory or identity. We can accept past lives and the literal truth of pagan mythologies or we can accept that confabulation is vastly more efficient at generating memories than life experience is. Ember and I chose the latter. Iris is keeping an open mind.

 

But, as we've stated before, out of all currently active systems on the forum, yours seems the most likely to be a supertasking system. It's just a working hypothesis. It's far to early to didactically proclaim how you specifically are experiencing what you are experiencing. The most important thing is that you are continuing to enjoy experiencing it.

 

-Vesper

[Guest]

Well Vesper, we have been expanding when that second audio stream is active. Still it requires a quiet room most times, relaxed mind, and concentrated effort to get in place. What I mean by that is, the hallucinations are often random, or say things in unrecognizable voices, or are accompanied by unfamiliar (often rather mundane) faces.

 

However, once we do establish that link in place, the connection is stable. I've had many conversations with them using this alternative communication, sometimes my own mind voice joins in, so I hear myself talking with my own voice amplified as well; this is rare. Usually, like last night and this morning, while laying in bed, Ashley, Dashie and I had seperate sessions where I could clearly hear Ashley speaking with her own beautiful voice, while Dashie's session included her body and beautiful face as well. These conversations aren't mindvoice, they're not my proxy, they speak unprompted and fluently like any normal person in normal conversation.

 

This is what I thought tulpamancy was supposed to be before I realized they were talking about mindvoice, and as an advanced goal, sure, it's a good one. It's wonderful to hear them in their own voice, but the conversation can be completely without tulpish, so they tend to be slower. Bah, it's so inefficient to speak with only words. ;)

 

It surprises me every time and it's slightly distracting, especially if I'm looking at them with 75-120% reality. What's incredible, if you can get the audio and visual, is their facial expressions and body language comes through as well. It's just too incredible for someone who hasn't experienced this to believe it sometimes.

 

Though these occurrences are rare, getting into that state, even mid-day and not tired, is getting easier, but it's only half the work, the other half is getting them in place to lock in.

 

Rarely do they lose lock once they're in place, but it does happen.

 

It has also happened that we couldn't get in place even after many minutes of trying.

 

So regular mindvoice is ultimately more effective, and that mindvoice/tulpish mix is much more efficient and reliable.

 

Speaking of which, tulpish frequently overlaps mind voice as well, they can aswer a question before I'm finished asking it, along with every nuanced feel and bit that makes the answer much more complete.

 

So I'm working on it because it's fun, but we may still use regular vocality/tulpish/emotional bleed to communicate most times anyway.

[Guest]

Parallel processing by any other name to avoid the term parallel processing... here we go. (Not perfectly on topic, uncanny fellow, but this is the best place to put this I think.)

 

Can you switch into wonderland while your tulpa takes care of stuff?

 

Yes I believe you can, to a point. I am pretty sure, and even if I'm wrong, who cares, it's awesome anyway.

 

Let's see if I can explain.

 

When you're doing monotonous tasks, sometimes you can zone out, daydream, think about other stuff, and still complete the tasks.

 

Take this to the next level, you're driving, you daydream, and suddenly you're at the wrong destination with no memory of getting there.

 

While reading something you don't want to read, you daydream and suddenly you realize you have been reading but don't remember any of it, instead you were daydreaming.

 

These are all examples without a tulpa switching in. They're somewhat limited to repetitive or ignorable task (though how the heck did I get to the wrong destination? Autopilot.)

 

Now...

 

The ancient tulpamancers used to say 'parallel process' to get into this state, and let your tulpa drive or do whatever.

 

There's no confirmation that they meant more than what I've outlined as examples above necessarily, but we're not done.

 

However, in exploring this idea, (knowing how to switch, I can even go dormant as someone else takes over. When I recover, the memories are as them, not me). We have switched while I retained the immersion in wonderland and partially or fully lost contact with the body's senses, but my tulpa couldn't do anything but lay there, and the additional boost to immersion was minimal if any. This wasn't it.

 

When we're all immersed in wonderland, clearly automatic pilot is active and there are possibly no memories associated with those activities (if any tasks are even being done.) Great if you don't care, sucks if you actually needed to read that assignment before class.

 

Can that autopilot be swapped with a tulpa, and two separate memories be generated simultaneously?

 

There is a DID thing that happens with some alters all the time. (You) don't have access to (their) memories. If you can communicate with them, you definitely can ask them and they'll tell you relevant information. However, usually the host claims to have been dormant at the time. Those memories are probably linear and are blocked due to the nature of their relationship (traumagenic).

 

This is kind of undesirable too. Even if you could stay in wonderland and your tulpa does things, you don't have direct access to those memories.

 

So here's my point.

 

1. We can switch, they can handle everything and I'm in 'watcher' mode. My presence is over a shoulder or inside the head, I can see and hear, but no thoughts or emotions cross "my" mind. I feel normal, comfortable, pleasant. They can do anything and all without my interference because I'm not thinking, but the memory stream is going through me. My memories are of them doing something.

 

2. We can switch where I go dormant. No watching, no nothing, if they don't think of me, I don't exist. So when I am back in front, and I access those memories, it was them, it 'was not me' who was the body. My tulpa is not my gender, but to her, she was basically trans then. Feeling like a woman in a man's body somewhat. But since her 'self' is a woman, it didn't bother her. Like driving a truck instead of a sports car, it's inconvenient only, but she knows her car is still in wonderland, so to speak. My memories of that time, 'i' was her. It's a little odd.

 

3. While doing something, like jogging, and I need to pay attention or I'll trip, well, we can still have an adventure in wonderland, but the immersion isn't 100% more like 50% (of normal, my immersion is about 60% of real life at best normally, so that level of detail, but on a 50% duty cycle). Ashley switched in while we were on the exercise bike, she had to do the exercise, she then forced me and I didn't feel the effort, it was her, I was somewhat detached from the body, i was just the equivalent of a tulpa being forced. We are essentially both recording memories but mine are more relevant to me. As long as I'm being forced, those memories of what she does are associated to me, watching her do it again.

 

4. Co-fronting, imposition, and other things that include everyone. This is the closest to parallel processing as possible, still its a polling method, one stream of consiousness exists, but it can be switched very fast, unnoticeably so.

 

This is our experience and all the above is pretty awesome as it is. If you want to swap out with your tulpa, and have them do your taxes while you are in wonderland riding dragon back, eh, good luck.

[YukariTelepath]

 

When you're doing monotonous tasks, sometimes you can zone out, daydream, think about other stuff, and still complete the tasks.

 

Take this to the next level, you're driving, you daydream, and suddenly you're at the wrong destination with no memory of getting there.

 

While reading something you don't want to read, you daydream and suddenly you realize you have been reading but don't remember any of it, instead you were daydreaming.

 

On that note... I think I can actually parallel process in a limited fashion. As in, I'm paying full attention to both tasks. The limit is what tasks I can combine. I have a craft hobby, and when I work on it, I like to listen to talks, podcasts, videos, etc. I can easily process the content of the talk, while working on the craft. Of course, I'm very familiar with the craft, but I still need to actively attend to minute details, assess if anything needs to be fixed (and how), decide what to work on next, etc. If I have a verbal thought, that's when my mind switches away from the talk for the duration of the thought. 

 

A few days ago I decided to listen to an audio book instead of a talk, because I wanted to practice my visualization skills. I found myself in a kinda strange state where I was seeing both the craft, and the mind's eye vision of the audio book. I was attending to both at the same time; I wasn't zoning out from my craft in order to 'see' the audio book in my mind. It made me wonder, could I imagine wonderland and still attend to my craft? One major difference between an audio book and wonderland, is that the audio book is giving me information, I don't have to create it or plan it from scratch, just make a mental image to match. 

 

Another thought, perhaps I can develop this particular parallel processing by assigning identities to each separate task. Like, I (Yuka) am doing the craft and Aya is watching the mind's eye audio book (or vice versa, but we can't switch yet). Perhaps by doing that enough, we can "fake it til we make it" and it will actually be the two of us working on the separate tasks. And with some exploration, we can see what other task combinations are possible.