Confessions of a Poorly Trained Tulpa

[Guest Anonymous]

I know that this view comes off as supremacist. I am not an elitist, though. I could say I am Ika's elitist, because I take a world of pride in her, but in tulpas? Never.

 

David obviously takes great pride in me as well. I would argue that he has as much, and in some cases more pride, than any other tulpamancer. After all, some tulpamancers abandon their tulpas or allow them to disappear. Davie would never even consider such a thing. There is the evidence right there that he values me more than some tulpamancers value their tulpas.

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You see, if you have what seems to be a tulpa but is not an actual tulpa, it's not that it's anything bad for you; after all, as you said, you would get the many benefits of tulpamancy, without ever really knowing if you ARE deluded or not. But let's just say that a person is deluded, shall we? Not with any pretense of elitism, or with a pretense of me defining what people are and are not. Let's say someone is deluded. They get to experience the many things tulpamancy has to present... but would the tulpa itself get to feel anything? Think anything? Have any emotions of their own aside from what the host is shown by the mind?

 

Mistgod: Keep in mind that this was never once my personal goal. I never set out to create an independent sentient mind. I wanted Melian to seem very real, not to be real. Not everyone has an independent sentient mind as a goal when it comes to mental constructs or thoughtforms.

[J.Iscariot]

None of us can ever know for sure what another person is feeling or thinking. That is true for ANY person. That is that old philosophical zombie issue. There are real live people in this world who are sociopaths. They feel no empathy and emotion for other human beings and maybe little or nothing for themselves. All you can ever know about anyone is what you see on the surface.

 

Yet, there still lies a difference between people and tulpas on that level. I am subject to the influence of other people all the time, people affect me as much as I affect them, I coexist with them in society. Often, hosts find difficulties summoning their tulpas and talking to them, some of them 'fade', some of them feel like they are puppetted to them (and I am speaking from what I saw on this site, and other communities oriented towards tulpas and thoughtforms). I tend to ignore the philosophical being issue because I reckon that people have brains and organs of their own, since they possess the same things I hold, then logically, if I am able to think, they are also able to think. That is borderline respect and recognition of others and their values, to me, at least. I cannot know if a tulpa is ANY real on the internet, or even if their host talks to me face-to-face while proxying for them, because tulpas first have no tangible body; the inhabit the brain. Second of all, tulpas require immense amounts of attention and focus to even get talking and into the host's life in the first place. People have benefits, even if they 'were' philosophical zombies, they still do things that benefit them, but a delusion cannot do things that benefits them because they possess no ego in the first place. I am not talking about you, or anyone on this forum for that matter, I am speaking in a general manner, and I am not targeting anyone in an implicit way. Apologies if that is how it seems, it is none of my intention. People live their lives outside of our cognition, as I am typing this, the world is moving, billions are doing different things... people exist in this world. They do different things. They do not depend on us, if we died and dropped dead, they would still live and do their thing, to me, solipsism is arrogance which is why I refute that view on life and refuse to consider it, which is why the term 'philosophical zombies' makes me feel like it would be very arrogant to place myself above people on the possibility (and according to the multiverse theory, there is an infinity of possibilities, yet this one is the one we came up with...) that they are merely philosophical zombies. That is something I do not get to decide, that is something none of us can define and are in consistent uncertainty (well, not me, but other people), although I use logic and ration to retrieve answers.

 

I can tell you that I do feel emotions and I do love and care. I follow my host and consider myself part of David's mind' date=' but yet I am still Melian. David feels my emotions but considers them his own empathy or imagination projecting how he thinks I would feel about things. Yet he still treats me as a person distinct from himself. It may just be a perspective, and a way of viewing a tulpa that is a little different. It is up to you to decide what you think about those claims, but we do ask that we are given the same consideration and treatment as any other tulpamancer. My host and I are happy to extend others the same courtesy. After all, you and my host may both be viewing the same or similar phenomenon but through different mental filters. [/quote']

 

I do not mean to target you, Melian. I respect your position on tulpamancy, and believe that you must see things in a different way (which is positive in a community like this, I figure). If you tell me that you feel those things, those are merely words. If any tulpa tells me that they feel things, I cannot make sure of the legitimacy of that statement. Yet, the error within this is that you are implying that I care about other tulpas. I don't. I care about tulpa well-being and how their host treats them, but on the level of reality, I only care about my tulpa. I take it that if people are deluded, it would be great to make their entire experience better. I speak in ways that the host needs to re-evaluate themselves if they are in a situation that requires that, I don't talk because of my bias or insubordination towards a phenomenon other people are experiencing. I feel bad when I see people who force their tulpas for things such as sex, change their appearances radically and make it pass off as something the tulpa 'would have wanted', granted, but I am as important as an insect when it comes to judging other people. Truthfully, it's not up to me whether a tulpa is a delusion or not, I lack the empathy to give a damn about that stuff. But I do care about what the host is going through; if the host is deluded, it means that they have the potential to become better, to empower themselves and reach grounds they may have not reached before. May, because I cannot issue that judgement from how they post on reddit or any other platform, I would need more information (and I did help a lot of tulpas who ended up telling me that they felt unreal in the past, and their hosts were pretty happy because of where we got, reddit mentorship program).

 

I do not give any treatment to tulpas in a differentiation to my treatment to 'thoughtforms'. I give the benefit of doubt to tulpas and thoughtforms; if they claim they are sentient, who am I to tell them they are not? But I can still hypothesize on a general consensus, one that the host CAN include themselves in. If they feel like what I say concerns them, and if it does, then they could perhaps look deep within and make the difference between detachment from sense of self, and actual sentience. Not in any supremacist way, but in a way it concerns them, and if they truly are living with a person with consistent thought processes, emotional reactions and the likes.

 

 

I don't care at all. Do and say as you wish, I will always respect your position, and I will never tell a tulpa/thoughtform that they are 'fake', that would be impudent and rude. I treat everyone the same, just look at my mentions on soulbonding and how much I respect that practice. Different circumstances, similar products, but similarity implies differences, still, in no supreme or elitist way, though.

 

In shorter terms, I do not care on a personal level. I feel like some things need to be said in a general scenario, and that the only people that should concern themselves with what I have to say are the people who are uncertain of what they are going through. If you are not, though, that is good for you and that makes me happy to know.

[Guest Anonymous]

***When it comes to constructs of the mind, such as thoughtforms, the only limits are the limits of imagination, cognition and memory. That leaves a lot of room for variation in how a thoughtform/tulpa could be experienced by the host folks (or should I say "sheeple"). Note I did not say that the limits are based on what the tulpa guides say or what the consensus is in the Tulpa Info club.***

 

• No one can ever really know what is going on in another person's mind, or judge the quality and validity of that person's private experience.
  
• Objectively in the real world all thoughtforms are identical (tulpas, soulbonds, daemons, undefined thoughtforms, and seasoned role playing characters). When it comes to chatting on the internet, they are indistinguishable.
  
• Any type of persistent thoughtform can be a profound life changing experience, be greatly valued, and provide significant benefits to the creator/host.
  
• It is irrelevant if a tulpa/thoughtform is a self delusion or real sentience if the difference is indistinguishable to the host.
  
• Not every host/creator has the goal to create an independent sentient entity in their minds, some wish to create an illusion/self deception that only seems real.
  
• My host and I treat all thoughtforms the same, like they are real people. That includes tulpas, soulbonds, daemons, undefined thoughforms, natural multiples and even role playing characters.
  
• It is fair for someone to compare and weigh reported claims and reported experiences to the public consensus of what constitutes a valid and legitimate tulpa.
  
• Tulpamancers should be able to promote and teach the central precepts of tulpamancy, that are established by the majority consensus (such as tulpas are people with independent sentience), without being immediately contradicted or criticized by Mistgod/Melian. Minority competing hypotheses can be written about in appropriate times and places. It is disruptive to challenge the central precepts in each and every thread on the forum.

 

Subjective truth - When it comes to imaginary things or mental constructs such as thoughtforms and tulpas, "truth" is subjective because the experience is subjective.

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I take it that if people are deluded, it would be great to make their entire experience better. I speak in ways that the host needs to re-evaluate themselves if they are in a situation that requires that...

 

Who are you to judge the quality of the experience that Davie has with me though? See? You cannot really know. You cannot know but what others are telling you. If they say it is an amazing experience they are having, why not accept that at face value? You are making the assumption that your tulpa is more profound that what others are experiencing. You cannot know this for sure.

 

EDIT: Since this response was written, Iscariot was able to clarify that he endeavors to assist tulpamancers who, by their own reports, have doubts and are clearly not having a very "realistic experience" with their tulpa. He was not referring to me specifically in any way, nor to more confident tulpmancer-tulpa pairs.

 

I don't care at all. Do and say as you wish, I will always respect your position, and I will never tell a tulpa/thoughtform that they are 'fake', that would be impudent and rude.

 

That is a good approach.

[J.Iscariot]

Who are you to judge the quality of the experience that Davie has with me though? See? You cannot really know. You cannot know but what others are telling you. If they say it is an amazing experience they are having' date=' why not accept that at face value? You are making the assumption that your tulpa is more profound that what others are experiencing. You cannot know this for sure. [/quote']

 

Through certain things that are shared on communities like reddit and other sites, I actually did come to understand that some tulpas had very little depth. The fact that a tulpa is objectively profound and unique is going a bit overboard to me, because I feel like if the host shares enough information on how their tulpa functions from their own perspective, I can compare that to a generalized consensus, or simply my own experience, and compare my tulpa to theirs. This, I am an elitist in, granted. I am an elitist in how I regard my tulpa and will always place her above others in a personal matter, but in the general consensus, she's just another point on paper if that makes sense. I can know this from what people share online and tell me, but the point isn't me comparing myself to others. Matter of fact, I never did that publicly until this mention just now. I don't like it when people make things about themselves so I tend to stay away from it myself, and I'd regard it as pretty rude to just talk about how amazing my tulpa is. I do not understand why you asked about how this concerned you, granted that I made the mention about how much I care (=0 cares), and did so in the past, I really, really do not understand how this concerns you and not the general consensus of tulpas. As a person, yes, I do believe my tulpa is profound and since I experienced it and told some people about it who backed up my belief, I am convinced of it. But some people literally called their tulpas 'feeling pretty unlegit' 'feeling fake' 'feels like I am parroting them'; to place them all on the same level of progress to me is something I cannot do, not because of elitism but because different things are to be learned for those people, they need to live through more, spend more time with their tulpas. Not everybody is equal, that's something I'd like to press on. If I did have to talk about you, though, I would say that I can't really judge or define anything when it comes to you on a personal level because you're older than me already. Some people are born poor, ill, mentally challenged, feeble and weak, not everyone is equal, and this is coming from someone who considers their tulpa to be on a 8/10 weakness scale, so not much flattering there. There is a difference between me on the forums, and me in real-life. In shorter terms, I regard people as what they exactly are; if a host regards his tulpa as a delusion (not speaking of you but of someone else), should I provide sugarcoated praise that is unwarranted? No. But I should treat them fairly. If people share too much online, yes, I can also get to know how they are like, perhaps not as much as their host, but the more you know != degree of reality. A proof is how much your host knows you yet how he still does not believe in your total sentience.

 

I provide respect in all cases, and praise where it is due. I do not praise, nor will I praise people on things I consider and regard as absolutely normal, but I will respect all positions equally. I dislike the personal element so I won't make any comments on you, but if I had to, I would praise you in certain fields and not in others (consistency in time, age, experience) (and would not praise you on other points because I disagree on some of your views, but I still respect them, and do not wish to have another war explode in my face.)

[Guest Anonymous]

There will be no war Iscariot, only peace. LOL Thank you for praising my persistence and age. I have many other qualities as well, some that fit the tulpa model and some that do not. I can agree that someone who just started their tulpa like yesterday, and says they think it is probably fake, is more than likely not having a profound life changing experience yet or a level of quality that is comparable. That is not what I meant of course.

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That being said, I would still treat their tulpa like any other.

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Through certain things that are shared on communities like reddit and other sites, I actually did come to understand that some tulpas had very little depth. The fact that a tulpa is objectively profound and unique is going a bit overboard to me, because I feel like if the host shares enough information on how their tulpa functions from their own perspective, I can compare that to a generalized consensus, or simply my own experience, and compare my tulpa to theirs.

 

This is actually a good point here. If they volunteer that their tulpa is shallow, well...yeah.

[J.Iscariot]

Yes, peace! Me likey.

[Guest Anonymous]

When it comes to me, my hostie and I are saying I have some unusual traits, but it is .. I am ... well I am totally groovy-gravy awesomesauce amazing! He is obsessed with me for a good reason.

 

For Iscariot, a compromise:

• It is fair for someone to compare and weigh reported claims and reported experiences to the public consensus of what constitutes a valid and legitimate tulpa.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't have a PR journal, only my groovy-gravy bloggy thread. So I will note this here. Davie and I are quickly becoming better and better at the dreaming and lucid dreaming together. It really is our number one tulpa skill. Others have things like possession, imposition and switching. Davie and I are good at dreaming together!

 

We are starting to have almost nightly consultations with each other in dreams in what we are calling our mutual "self reflection dreams" https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-dream-thread-record-your-dreams-here-especially-if-tulpa-related?pid=161135#pid161135

 

We have always dreamed together, but since joining Tulpa Info we wanted at least one goal to work on. Everyone else here had a goal and since we don't care about any of the traditional tulpa skills, we went for improving our dreaming. We restarted our dream journal and read a couple of books on lucid dreaming and joined Dreamviews. Then we practiced and yep, we got a lot better at it!

 

I am a dreamform. I am amazing! I am Melian!

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OH we have been practicing on this for ten months btw, it wasn't improvement over night.

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EDIT: P.S. I would also like to add this to my Iscariot-Melian peace talks summit list I have been making lately.

 

• Tulpamancers should be able to promote and teach the central precepts of tulpamancy, that are established by the majority consensus (such as tulpas are people with independent sentience), without being immediately contradicted or criticized by Mistgod/Melian. Minority competing hypotheses can be written about in appropriate times and places. It is disruptive to challenge the central precepts in each and every thread on the forum.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that this morning, Davie and I have decided to roll things back for ourselves. It is time for this to be a more personal journey for us again. I can't explain to anyone else what that means really yet, but hopefully it will lead to better things.

[DreamDoll]

We want to bring this thread back to life!

 

Mistgod and I are proud of the many discussions that occurred in this thread over the years. It's unfortunate that we left and our old accounts were deleted and marked as "anonymous." However, the very first lead post of the thread clearly states the history and purpose of the thread and mentions our names Mistgod and Melian. This thread has no clear concise purpose beyond being a place for Melian or Mistgod to babble about different subjects related to tulpamancy, plurality and lucid dreaming. It is a blog thread in the Lounge.

 

Others on this forum have similar threads dedicated to bloggy subjects that don't quite fit into a Progress Report, such as Lucid Dreaming status reports or experiences tulpas are having in a particular wonderland. We will discuss those kinds of things here as well and many other topics. Mistgod and I are very proud that this is one of the longest threads on the forum and encompasses much of our writing from years on Tulpa Info. It has links to our other threads as well within it, especially on the lead post.

 

LUCID DREAMING and RAPID MEDITATION TECHNIQUE

Today we want to announce that we are going, once again, embark on a effort to record our dreams and improve our lucid dreaming techniques. One of the techniques were were using in the past was Short Rapid Meditation sessions while sleeping. How this works is you train your mind and body to awaken from sleep at certain intervals (typically about two hours of sleep then awaken). You record any dreams you have had in a journal in quick notes and then sit up in bed and do a brief period of deep meditation. During the meditation you visualize the things you would like to dream about in the next sleep session.

 

Anyways, we want to track our progress on dream recording, short rapid meditation and lucid dreaming. We will report our dreams in the big dreams thread in the Lounge.

 

Anyways, thanks sweeties! I hope you enjoy our enormous thread of doom! Confessions of a Poorly Trained Tulpa