Confessions of a Poorly Trained Tulpa

[Guest Anonymous]

Science, huh. But it's a soft science, a science of the mind, of subjective phenomena different to each person...

 

Anyways, that's the kind of science I'm doing. You can keep trying to find rules and facts by reading books about the mystical, but even then you seem to have missed the meanings of their teachings so far by focusing so much on facts. Once you accept that there aren't any, maybe then you'll start learning.

 

Reisen, thank you. I need to listen more carefully to you. I am a horrible listener. My effective filter is my ego. Give me time. LOL I like your approach to this very much. The reason I have focusing on empirical science is that the forum itself states that it is for science. Okay, soft science of observation and testimony? If that is the case, I have been contributing by providing testimony of my own and something to observe certainly! Okay, for soft science then. We are all on the couch I guess LOL. Very interesting perspective.

 

Can I ask you something? If this is soft science and the subject of thought forms is very subjective and different for each person, why am I being singled out for criticism for presenting my experiences and personal views in this thread? I know you didn't do it, but I ask for this to make a point, or as Melian says give a "pointy idea." I am learning from this forum and it is changing me (albeit slow as molasses).

 

Do you know why I came out so hard, throwing punches so much at this forum and continue to do so? Because of the almost insane intolerance I got from a vocal few for the slightest peep of criticism or nonconformity. Also I saw others being maltreated for being different until they left the forum (specifically for holding a view concerning a metaphysical source for tulpas). It fired me up to stamp on feet, knock over drinks and be loud and obnoxious at the party. Well, more than usual.

 

That kind of intolerance and hate and the name calling and personal attacks are far more destructive than anything I have ever done here!

 

Here is my opinion to all on how to fix this forum: Stop suggesting mods moderating content of statements and questions. Stop suggesting the of screening personalities of new members for the "right kind of people" with the "right thinking" and the "right personality." Be patient as the hills. I don't mean tolerating obvious trolls. I am talking about listening to those critical of the community, even if it rankles you a bit. That is where the seeds to improve the community lie. New persons coming in can see things more clearly sometimes than those who are established members.

 

People got angry because I said the following types of things:

1. Tulpas are illusions/self delusions but are still cool. (not a new idea even)

2. The tulpa community has elements of intolerance, paranoia, and defensiveness against opposing views or criticism. This very thread totally proves my point on that. Totally. There is a such thing as what I called "tulpa heresy." I was right all along. Some members are approaching this as if it is their own personal religion and not science at all. I stand by those statements.

 

3. This is pseudo-science and the guides are a little (or a lot) weak because they are missing source references for further research outside of the guides. Is this forum based on any science at all? Where are the links and references in the guides to some real science? I was told there are brain studies that support the idea of multiplicity of consciousness. Can we include some links to some literature on these sorts of things? Is there some psychological literature out there that supports this concept? Or are the links/support literature already there and I am missing it? (DOH!) I know there is some of this buried in the threads of the forum, but it is hard for new people to find.

 

4. There is an element of role playing or acting in proxy tulpa typing on the chat. I believe there is an element of role playing, albeit unconscious, to all of this. Therefore, role playing is not an evil term distinct from or alien to tulpas. There is more role playing going on than people are willing to admit. It is just an opinion based on MY observations.

 

The first point is my own personal opinion and perspective, which isn't even that new and I did back it up with reasons. I feel that way for good reasons. The second two points are valid criticisms and people should listen to me. The third is just, again, my personal perspective because I am such a strong role player and there is, honestly, that element in my thought form.

 

What is so horrid about me speaking my mind about the above things?

 

I think if the community is more welcoming and tries to make the forum more fun and inviting, we will spark a lively intercourse and get more testimonies for the soft science observation method of data gathering. Sure, insist the focus be on thought forms and tulpas. But we shouldn't angrily try to drive someone away with hate speech because in their first week they are bold enough to suggest that role playing is an element of proxy typing in the chat.

 

~Mistgod (troublesome person and the wrong kind of thinker apparently to some)

---

 

Somebody is in a strong mood today.

 

Melian's name was brought up and she was misused. Naturally, I got defensive. I am only sorry it took me a couple of weeks to catch it.

 

 

---

The sorts of people in a community who continuously complain, complain, and complain, no matter how justified they are, are not doing anything else besides blowing hot air without structure and relative poise to how they articulate themselves. To constantly lash out out both the opinions and the people who hold them or are perceived to hold them does not do anything beyond breed a group of people who will think the same, and inflict the very same on other people who do not fit with their view.

 

That is not a community, that is a clique.

 

OH my gods! Yes, that has been my observation and I am sure I am not the only one. Thank you so much for talking about this! I just fell in love with you! THANK YOU, THANK YOU. LOL

---

Dealing with it in an entirely heavy-handed and close-minded way only breeds the clique-ish nature that I mentioned above, whereas dealing with it in a completely open-minded and welcoming sense can just the same breed a community of people who are just wandering in circles with their own fantasies rather than forward. What needs to be reached is a middle-ground to sort out those who possess something worth hearing and those who would be better off not being listened to whatsoever.

 

You need to show people on the outside that your door is open, but you also need to ensure they know that they're expected to pull their own weight once they're inside.

 

It's a middle-ground that I feel .info does not currently possess, but it is certainly one that I would hope can be worked toward and achieved. However, I would say out of all of them it is one of the most difficult to perform, as on a grand scale that is installing a group-think mentality. Not impossible certainly, but definitely something which will take a lot of work.

 

These thoughts and suggestions are certainly much better than something like "This place sucks because the admins and mods suck! Let's get mods who will use their power to quickly punish and remove those personalities and ideas we don't like!" Thank you so much for your careful reasoning and your time on presenting this. If more people approach things this way, there is hope for this forum.

 

~Mistgod

[Luminesce]

You state your beliefs or "observations" as if they're fact, constantly. Even when you follow them up with "This is my opinion", you've already made your mark as preaching facts. There are some rude people, but overall people are just defensive because your tone doesn't imply constructiveness, but destructiveness. You intend well but your ego is adding an edge that, combined with your position as generally against the norm, is not conducive to constructive arguments. You also unconsciously portray yourself as "an outsider who wants to change things to be his way", in that aspect.

 

Now that I think about it, I don't think anyone but the more tolerant of us have bothered having constructive conversations with you. True the more aggressive members are more likely to become defensive when offended, but they aren't senseless either. The way you go about sharing information so matter-of-factly combined with the fact that you're trying to bring up conflicting ideas just isn't productive, and only the nicer members have looked past that to try and make something good of it. When those tolerant members point out problems of yours, they're essentially trying to tell you you're doing something wrong, not being productive. In this case, we're basically saying that while we understand where you're coming from, not everyone can be expected to and you need to change how you go about saying things to reach a peaceful outcome.

 

 

Besides your personal beliefs regarding thought forms, I agree with the rest. It's not my place to make such claims about the community, but I don't disagree with them. Though I still think both sides should be a little more understanding.

[Guest Anonymous]

You state your beliefs or "observations" as if they're fact, constantly. Even when you follow them up with "This is my opinion", you've already made your mark as preaching facts. There are some rude people, but overall people are just defensive because your tone doesn't imply constructiveness, but destructiveness. You intend well but your ego is adding an edge that, combined with your position as generally against the norm, is not conducive to constructive arguments. You also unconsciously portray yourself as "an outsider who wants to change things to be his way", in that aspect.

 

Okay, fair enough on some points, a little harsh overall (maybe justifiably harsh I will admit). I think I have contributed more of quality than you are giving me credit for. I do back up my views fairly well where I can. Things that are personal experiences can't really be backed up with anything. For instance my understanding of imagination (including apparent sentience) as pseudo-real existence and not tangible actual reality. Can't really back up that kind of thing with much.

 

Let's see what happens over the coming months. To be honest, I have run out of criticizing and rabble rousing material. LOL All I have left is to talk about lucid dreaming and Melian's art and ideas and maybe chat with people about their tulpas a bit. I felt I had to respond to this thread because someone said something nasty about Melian specifically.

 

I don't think I will ever truly fit in really, but it will calm down. I guarantee it.

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When those tolerant members point out problems of yours, they're essentially trying to tell you you're doing something wrong, not being productive. In this case, we're basically saying that while we understand where you're coming from, not everyone can be expected to and you need to change how you go about saying things to reach a peaceful outcome.

 

Okay fair enough thank you. I will try my best to actually think about what you are saying.

[Guest Anonymous]

http://pre02.deviantart.net/43a4/th/pre/f/2014/114/6/7/chibi_sign_i_love_you_close_up_by_melianofmist-d7fv0t0.jpg[/img]

 

David and I just realized something important and we want to say this to the world!

 

Any person who cannot handle matter of fact statements and personal opinions, substantiated or not, from an old silly nerd and his frilly girly imaginary friend, is weak beyond belief.

 

We believe in internet Darwinism. If a forum is strong it will survive, if it is weak it will justifiably die. Not because of anything we say or don't say, do or don't do, but because it was WEAK.

 

That goes for individuals. If new members coming into a forum can't handle a bit of chaos in a forum based on subjective ideas and conflicting personalities , they are weak and won't last. They don't deserve to survive. It is internet survival of the fittest.

 

If your mind is not strong enough to handle the internet, you should go somewhere else and do something else other than interact on an internet forum.

 

I am tired of saying my little self and our opinions can't hurt you! I changed my mind. Our ideas and statements of opinion can hurt you!

 

BOO! (so scary scary)

 

[Guest Anonymous]

Note Melian's piece on internet Darwinism in her latest PR report. It pretty much sums up my attitude at this point. If my opinions rankles someone a bit, GOOD. If what I say gets someone to thinking about things from a new perspective GREAT. If a person can't handle it, and resorts to personal attacks or name calling or running to mods for help against my mere opinions, statements, personality and ideas, he or she is a weakling and really should get off the internet.

 

If I was harassing or attacking someone on a very personal way, that would be different. But that is not what we are talking about is it? We are talking about ideas and opinions in a discussion forum!

 

~Mistgod

[Guest Anonymous]

I just want to say a quick little thing about trolls/roleplayers before I go to bed.

 

I think what some people are forgetting here is that we have absolutely no reason to care whether or not someone is roleplaying (lying). The issue is, and always has been the way they affect our image, and influence other users (mainly newbies). I would say that the only real solution is to draw a sort of line, where we can somewhat concretely define what hurts our image, or negatively influences new users.

For example, I think that making absurd claims without having any backing, and refusing to listen to others' opinions should be seriously frowned upon. I would very much prefer for that kind of thing not to become a moderation matter, though. I would like to see the community collectively not stand for that kind of childish absurdity.

 

But I'm open to any ideas about how to implement a way to help prevent that kind of behavior.

 

Note: Statements of fact are not childish or "absurd claims" when they come up. For example, discussing the true origin of the concept of a tulpa and the new altered definition on the internet, while siting sources from my reading of the book by Alexandra David Neel. Is that an example of "absurd claims?" Is pointing out that the guides could use some scientific sources in a bibliography to back up the claim that it is based on science "absurd or childish?" Is stating the opinion that thought forms are entirely subjective and that sentience may be an illusion a completely absurd statement? I get the feeling we cannot state the truth as we learn things here, only the party line.

 

Where does stating opinion become childish absurdity? When it is contrary to the guides or to the prevailing views? Is this a science forum or not? I really think the community needs to decide what it is. Science or religion? Right now it seems to lean toward a proto-religion quite frankly.

[waffles]

For the love of God, Mistgod. Stop crying. You never got banned for 'stating your opinion', or anything. Can you move past your perceived persecution, for one post? Or do you need to continually whine about how the community treats you badly because of your oh-so-special opinions? I'd be much more inclined to listen if you had a history of taking criticism for your ideas well.

[Guest Anonymous]

For the love of God, Mistgod. Stop crying. You never got banned for 'stating your opinion', or anything. Can you move past your perceived persecution, for one post? Or do you need to continually whine about how the community treats you badly because of your oh-so-special opinions? I'd be much more inclined to listen if you had a history of taking criticism for your ideas well.

 

I was brought into this by this statement by Yuki:

Spouting baseless opinions and your unresearched thoughts of the day about the philosophy of the mind should not be accepted, though. Melian is a great example of that, yes. They simply speak whatever nonsense they come up with that day, just so people pay attention. There seems to be little coherence besides that their opinion on things change every few days so they are able to make more long posts. They're an attention whore that shouldn't be here, not an asset. They shouldn't be an example to anyone, in my eyes, they're a joke, and it's a bigger joke that they haven't been removed yet.

 

It is about me and Melian. I have a right to say my piece in response thank you. I am being singled out, labeled and marginalized for my opinions and ideas quite plainly and clearly. There is even a suggestion I should be banned for stating an opinion. How would you feel if your name came up in this thread in this manner?

[waffles]

I'd probably defend myself once, not six times. Which is half of my point, apparently something you missed. That last sentence there is the other thing; you can flaunt your opinions all you want, but since you don't seem to be open to persuasion about them, but rather, hold them because they're radical, yes, you will be labelled. That shouldn't come as a surprise to you. You simply do not back up your opinions well.

 

I've already challenged you on the religion thing you keep talking about, and that didn't stop you. I specifically remember you 'defending' your "tulpas are illusions" 'opinion' on IRC, and for the most part you just ignored any counterarguments. Oh, and calling for 'citations' doesn't make you 'scientific' - what is this, fucking Wikipedia? At some point you're gonna have to close your eyes, open wide and swallow some 'original research'. Guide writers tend to be primary sources, or near enough that an accurate source would be 'tulpa.info forums'. Oh, and roleplaying was much the same as 'illusions' - basically, you seem to be blind your confusion of terms, and insist on using emotionally charged but ambiguous words such as 'illusion' and 'roleplay' - again, it makes me think that you want to elicit responses rather than update your opinions. If you actually came out and stated, in unclear terms, what you meant, I doubt you'd get such a response.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'd probably defend myself once, not six times. Which is half of my point, apparently something you missed.

 

Okay. You're right. I said my stuff and I am done with this thread then. BTW, you are also right that I don't listen to others (especially when they are so clearly wrong and I am so clearly right).

 

Gods I am self centered. Melian and I are so self centered, everything on the forum is about us, just as we are in the chat room.