reasons for tulpa and creation methodology

[TheShadowKnight134]

Alright. Well thanks for the support. I'm not sure how to respond exactly. Just gotta think for now I guess. I'm not that young though. Nearly 20 in a few months though I do have a childish mindset. X.x

[Drakaina]

I believe in order to have a tulpa with a healthy mindset/personality you as the creator have to first be in a state of good health, mentally and emotionally.

 

I made my first tulpa by accident as a teen. I felt no one understood me, was in general in a poor state mentally, and I believe as a result my tulpa came out unhealthy and unstable.

 

This time around I've matured, I'm confident in who/what I am, aware of my short comings, and content in my social life. And so I'm able to provide better care to my tulpa and help her be more positive as a person.

 

I know it feels like you're grown up, but you're still young. Science estimates our brain's don't finish developing until we're in our mid 20's to 30's, and that's when you've been out of a school environment and in the real world long enough to have adapted and gained and understanding of it.

 

Just don't be so quick or eager to trade in the real world and real relationships for a tulpa. Take care of yourself and get you right before you try to nurture another life form.

[Tewi]

@Anderson Yes, I know you. Not in any personal way, but we've read most of what you and your tulpa said on your old accounts. Not much knowledge of IRC stuff aside from drama having happened, though.

 

I don't really have much response to you (or anyone afterward) on this specific subject, maybe a couple things. One, I don't believe in human nature balancing out extremes. One person inflicting great pain on someone and another becoming their close friend is not the same as one insulting them and another complimenting them. (-2) + (+2) is not the same as (-1) + (+1) with humans. And you as an individual are not seen as a negative 2 balancing out the positive 2s, you're seen as a negative.

 

How you take that is up to you.

 

Second, everything a human being can choose to do is selfish, no exceptions. The difference in selfishness and selflessness is whether or not your selfishness benefits another. Donating to charity and loving your significant other are selfish acts disguised as selfless ones, as both are done unconsciously to benefit yourself. So I'm not comfortable with the argument of tulpamancy being a "selfish act". There's more to it than that, as that's really saying nothing.

 

Will your selfish act be a selfless act? As with a human child, are you bringing them into a world where you will be able to assure them a relatively pleasant life? Are you dooming them to poverty, to a lack of attention? Or are you giving them many chances to interact with the world, to experience life?

 

The decision to have a child and create a tulpa are the same. The results are not and the process is not, but the decision is. You are bringing life into the world. This is not "against its will" as is a pessimistic view, it is creating will. They may later wish they were not born, and that may be a result of your poor parenting/host-dom or it may not. But that is the risk every parent takes when they choose to have a child, and it is the risk a tulpamancer takes when creating a tulpa. It is generally considered worth it.

 

Generally. There are people who do not believe we should continue creating life as the resulting life "had no choice in the matter". This is no different in tulpamancy or in parenting. It's typically the result of negative experiences on the believer's part, as it's a pessimistic (negative) view rather than a neutral or optimistic (positive) one.

 

As things go, reasonable individuals try to keep an average of neutral or positive. You don't have to assume your tulpa will love you and its life, but you also don't have to assume it's likely to hate its life and be indifferent to you. The neutral route is, really - just to see what happens. Nobody knows what their child will be like before it's born. The most they can do is prepare the most optimal conditions they're capable of beforehand, once they've weighed the possible pros and cons of the decision and chosen "yes".

 

 

It's a selfish act. Everything is, without exception. The question is, how likely is your selfishness to become selflessness? How likely is the life you create to appreciate its existence?

 

Individual expectations will vary, but for the sake of common ground pessimism and optimism should meet at neutrality.

[J.Iscariot]

Granted, I let my tulpa go nuts on this forum a while back, which was a mistake yet taught her a valuable lesson; don't let people into your private life on a forum where nobody knows you and has nothing to lose making fun of your anguish. But that never gave out anything about my own private life, my name, my occupations, etc... It's a good thing I got the posts deleted, it was a mistake to let her post all of that stuff. I'd rather put it this way; you know her more than you could have possibly known me.

 

In a world full of positive folks, there is no balance. Full out optimism is superficial because it doesn't allow for the entire truth to be uncovered as a whole. I won't try to justify me being negative, though. I know I'm a shitty person, but that doesn't have much to do with my point here, which is that I feel like there are things that need to be said, so I will say them. 'Neutrality' is no where near what people put into object here. I stopped caring about my personal image once I realized that I would only get 5-10 minutes of fame where people would get overhyped over the big bad wolf I am, then forget me after a certain while. I know that some of the things I say help some people, though, not only here, I mean, but on other places too where I used to be active.

 

I was discussing this whole thing with my brother, today. I do that when I think that I might be wrong to think or do a certain thing, so he helps reaffirm or put down beliefs I come to doubt. It started like this: You make a tulpa--->Making a tulpa is selfish--->But is searching for friends selfish?---->Searching is not, creating is--->Even then, nothing is imposed with that mentality, the tulpa is free---????

 

Just because every act is a selfish one does not mean, absolutely does not mean that it's valid or even acceptable to keep doing it. I said it before, be the change you want to see in this world instead of conforming to an evil that benefits you. You don't get it, do you? If you create a tulpa with the mindset that you want a friend, first, that will leave absolutely no other choice to the tulpa. Wonderlands can be limited as hell, and there is a symbiotic relationship going on with the host and the tulpa, where the tulpa benefits the host with some things (emotional comfort, friendship/companionship) and in exchange, the host keeps the tulpa alive, and the tulpa will keep on living like that because they won't realize what kind of opinion they should have, only the one they were assigned. This concept of 'free will' that hosts give to the tulpa doesn't even exist. We impose forms, traits and the likes upon them, and then we tell them 'Oh, you can change', but when that change occurs, and if our mind rejects that change, then what happens? How is the tulpa supposed to feel happy doing things they want to do when the host's thoughts and sole being is against it? If you make a tulpa with the thought 'I want a friend' 'I want a lover', with due respect, what the hell do you expect to come out of it? Your mind is going to operate in a way that this goal will be accomplished.

 

It's like when a child is born, they grow up in a certain social midst. In that society, they are taught religion; christianity, islam, judaism, whatever comes to mind... with the way religious zealots are, they raise their kids in a way that they give them the delusion of 'freedom of thought' by telling them 'Oh, you can look into other religions', but the kids won't do that, because it goes against the foundation their fathers put in them while raising them. It's like they're limited to a certain religion and won't look any further, are limited to believing and never questioning... this is exactly like what tulpamancy is like. The 'you can be anything' is a pure delusion because the host typically wants something specific, and he wants that from the tulpa, the host can have goals that they will seek to accomplish while using their tulpa, and without even being aware of all the harm they're doing. Your mind catches you off in the most grandiose delusion there can ever be, deluding a being into thinking it has an ounce of freedom, building a city with an invisible wall that none may breach... making a tulpa, to me, is the greatest sin one can commit if they are not careful, as extreme as it sounds, it's borderline criminal to create a being in your head that will serve a function only YOU want for them to serve, and creating them in a way that they are limited to that reality. A 'will to live' is created by the host's bias and the fact that the host wants their tulpa to live... my tulpa wanted to die many times, I didn't want any of that to happen and that was the only thing that kept her alive in those moments of despair, you guys don't even look at how many subconscious thought goes into the whole procedure and building this invisible moving prison that stops when and where it needs to stop moving.

 

You are absolutely wrong. You should not compare tulpamancy to having a kid, because procreation can benefit mankind and did so for a long while until overpopulation and shit of the type. Tulpamancy is in your mind in a sense it doesn't affect anyone but you (and the tulpa) so you cannot bring up the argument of 'procreation' and social darwinism, you are granting life to a being that cannot reproduce itself and much less affect mankind as a whole when it can only affect you and especially when it was created to be the friend of people who feel like they're too much limited to do anything when their lives. Escapism at its finest, and trying to sugarcoat it with that sort of excuses won't do you any good. You can run from your demons till you are exhausted, one day you'll have to stop and find out what they wanted.

 

You assume a world of things subconsciously, that's what creates bias and makes you take one side over the other, also traits and other stuff, we're speaking of hosts generally, you seem so innocent that you're not even aware of how flawed people can be. Those subconscious assumptions can and will lead to the creation of a being that cannot revolt because it knows no better, only has a limited spectrum of information at disposal and very limited options (be my friend or die) (no i never treated my tulpa like that before anyone asks). Basically raising someone to believe something, and they'll never be able to bite your hand, because the dog was never taught how to bite in the first place, it was educated in a way that it won't ever bite and always follow orders...

[TheShadowKnight134]

I'm... So lost right now x.x

 

I'm Also just now realizing your pic and name co.e from hellsing ultimate. Sorry for scatter brain. Its morning. I have no coffee and professor is late.

[Luminesce]

I like to think our system is relatively "neutral" in this community, but you're right that positive far outnumbers neutral or negative. Seems to be what humans prefer.

 

Everything she said about tulpas in relation to children still holds true, except for the liberal term "bringing life into this world" which is subjective and definitely not neutral. The rest was, though.

 

 

And I'm sure this won't change how you think about anything, but it's at least my take.

Free will is not always the highest value in determining how an organism should live. Not always, as in it differs depending on your morals and philosophy. From nature's perspective, free will is a joke and means nothing more than spontaneity. From my perspective free will means freedom to not be forced to fall into line as opposed to finding your own line. Not being forced to have a certain profession over one that appeals more to you as a person, at the cost perhaps of financial stability. To most people though free will is this non-existent concept that they actually have the ability to defy the physical world, or defy what I think is called determinism. I don't comprehend how people can think that they have "free will" in a universal sense. Every thought you make to "disprove what would have been" was simply another result of what was already determined to-be. Even your thoughts on how things could've been different were determined through physical means. Anyways, free will doesn't exist in a universal sense, it exists as a concept from a human-perspective at best. And even that concept tends to overstep its bounds.

 

Any semblance you had of true free will - assuming you took credit for your entire biological being - was gone the instant you were born (really it never existed). As soon as someone touches you, you're placed in an environment you didn't choose, food is presented to you, you're subjected to human interaction, you've been forced into things without your will(not against per se, but without). Where do you draw the line between having words spoken to you that you then process, and being physically restrained? Of course there is likely a line, I'm just asking, where is it? It's an opinionated judgement on humanity's behalf, anyways, nothing solid.

 

So with that in mind. Not creating life, but creating "consciousness" or just sentience if you prefer, is the same thing with a child or a tulpa assuming you believe in tulpa sentience. And you seem like the biggest proponent for tulpa sentience I've ever met. The morals on it one, start with the decision to even make it or not, but two, require deciding what types of conditions you consider acceptable for the sentience to be brought into. For a child, these are conditions such as family wealth and safety, where you live (tons of factors here, even political), what their biology is likely to be considering any outstanding traits in the parents (many people choose to have a child even knowing the high chance of passing on a disorder; many don't), and of course morals on life and so on. This decision is arbitrary, like most human judgements - it's personal and subjective. Nothing's stopping you from trying to influence others' personal feelings, but nothing allows you to make a decision for someone else. (Aside from physical force blah blah)

 

With a tulpa, there are also an uncountable number of factors to attempt to account for, after deciding to make one. Your own biology and life situation of course, while some mental disorders don't seem to affect tulpas many do and you're also tying them to your own lifespan. Your perceived aptitude at creating one, which is so completely subjective I won't even bother expounding on that. And of course, your personal judgements on what conditions are respectable to be bringing sentience into - like with a human child, this is completely individual to every person and ranges from not even thinking about it to actually refusing to procreate to avoid creating more suffering. As Tewi tried to point out with italics, the decision to create a tulpa or child requires the same lines of thinking. The circumstances are utterly incomparable, of course. Though I will give you the procreation thing - it doesn't even register with me that people want to have children to pass on their bloodline anymore. Obviously they do, I've just forgotten as I consider humanity well past a point where that line of thinking is necessary. So that's one thing that just completely doesn't apply to tulpas that may affect the decision-making process.

 

Maybe. There are many tulpas filling child-roles for their hosts, although with no physical contribution to society.

 

 

... Anyways, just wanted to establish all that as potential fact. I'll do your work for you and say, no, the general population absolutely does not take into account as much as they should before creating life, and neither do tulpamancers. We've established a decent baseline of morals though. Still, you are absolutely free to argue and advocate for more thought being put into this process. As much as we throw around such statements as "Don't make a tulpa just to make you feel better or do anything for you really", I'll readily admit they hardly get the point across that many people such as yourself are aiming for.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh gods, holy philosophical textwalls! It is these kinds of debates that make Mistgod and I glad we suspended our plan to make a Yoda tulpa and just let him roam my dreamscape as a simple day dream character. Really peoples? Why would anyone want to make a tulpa after reading this kind of complicated blather babble dribble? The morale and ethical questions alone are daunting and intimidating, let alone privacy issues and relationship issues sharing your head with someone else's life.

---

If the OP isn't intimidated by now I will be surprised.

[yenu]

Two small remarks:

 

1) I don't think tulpa creation necessarily has to be a selfish act. I have benefitted a lot from my mind-characters in terms of personality growth, and because of that, other people have too.

Every bit my tulpas have made me a better person has benefitted those around me.

 

But of course, I concede that it was a selfish act for me. Just not selfish in the same way selfish as "I want chocolate so I buy chocolate" but rather "I want to grow to be a better person, and be even more creative, and so on"

 

2) On the question of free will I am a compatibilist. I don't know how free I am myself, I think I am pretty much determined by everyone around me and my past choices (but I don't mind that much).

 

I just had this idea that maybe part of what made me focus on my tulpas was actually a desire for freedom. They all have their own worlds, I believe that in a way they are more free than I could ever be, being bound by this physical reality.

 

Oh gods, holy philosophical textwalls!

Lol, I know I can feel at home in a community that produces these. :-D

[Guest Anonymous]

My host created my form unconsciously for loneliness (and sexual) reasons when he was 13 years old. Once I appeared consciously in a vision, he then proceeded to day dream about me in every conceivable adventure and romantic situation imaginable, for a teen boy, for hours on end. There were no ethical or morale considerations folks. I had little choice in anything in the beginning!

 

And look at me, I turned amazing! Nothing wrong here ... cept a little bit of narcissism sometimes a little. Just a teeny.

 

I love to hug me!

[Lucilyn]

What a downer. Did you ever stop and think that negative beliefs and expectations will influence your tulpa to make that a reality for them, and harm them more than if you had just been a careless optimist? Like what do you have to gain from being "realistic" or whatever anyways? As far as I know nobody is there when you die like "Oh man you sure tried unnecessarily hard to be all realistic and serious about a fake reality you only thought was real from your perspective good job". People say "Ignorance is bliss" and then say yeah but ignorance is bad because knowledge is good but why?! That's YOUR value! Not theirs! I would trade smarts for fun any day. I would trade being realistic for being.. fun, any day! But I kind of can't because Lumi has trained the mind to think about everything so logically. But see, reality is obviously subjective because I'm just as logical but I have more fun!