A Series of Questions About Wonderlands

[Guest Anonymous]

Recently on the forum there have been some rather interesting posts concerning visualization and wonderlands that have gotten me and my host pondering again (a very dangerous thing). The first two posts here were two of the most recent and then I am giving links to some interesting posts on this topic from the past:

 

Wonderland by Kaz https://community.tulpa.info/thread-misc-wonderland

Does my tulpa control visualization? by pudding https://community.tulpa.info/thread-visualization-does-my-tulpa-control-the-visualization

What is the difference between wonderland activity and day dreaming? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-wonderland-what-is-the-difference-between-wonderland-activity-and-active-day-dreaming

Trippy questions about wonderlands and the unconscious and conscious mind. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-wonderland-trippy-questions-about-wonderlands-and-the-unconscious-and-conscious-mind

 

Okay, here are our questions and points for discussion:

 

1. If a tulpamancer visualizes a tulpa within their mind space, as in not imposed into the real world in any way, isn't a wonderland inevitable? I mean even a very limited and simple mental environment into which the tulpa is visualized would constitute a wonderland would it not? This seems like it would be especially true if that simple environment were used many times during the process of visualizing the tulpa and became fairly immutable or persistent. I have read tulpamancer accounts in which they state their tulpa has no wonderland. Do they mean they only imagine their tulpa in the real world and not in a mind space of any sort?

 

2. Some tulpa's visualized forms come with "accessories" such as clothing or "special effects" such as sparkles, fire, mist or special lighting. In my case, I have "movie set lighting" that always shines on my big dark blue eyes making them sparkle. Sometimes I am accompanied by colorful butterflies. Where does the tulpa's form end, in such a case, and the wonderland begin? For instance, if the tulpa is often imagined standing up on a patch of grass (I like grass) doesn't that patch of grass, or my butterflies, constitute mini wonderlands?

 

[hidden]In my case, my host and I see no distinct separation between my form and my wonderland. I am my wonderland, and my wonderland is me. My wonderland forms out of me and around me and is part of me. My wonderland is the Melian Show. It is not so much an immutable place as a thought or figment and illusion that forms around me. My dreamscape mansion comes the closest to being a regular set wonderland as it doesn't change much. Still we consider the dreamscape mansion just another virtual reality "set" and everything in it is "props."[/hidden]

 

3. My host and I dream about my wonderland. I am curious bout others who also dream about the tulpa's wonderland. How "set" are these dreams? Does the wonderland change during the dream and even retain new elements that you dreamed about after you have awakened? (Yesh, this happens with us, my dreamscape mansion is in fact an element of my hosts recurring dreams).

 

4. My host and I visualize my Melian Show wonderland together jointly. It is a collaboration. How many tulpas out there help construct their own wonderlands? Do you work in collaboration with your tulpa? If tulpas are independent minds, can they not visualize everything into existence just as much as the host can?

 

[hidden]In my case my host would say I am just him. I am, in the end, a product of his conscious and unconscious imagination. So any visualization I do, or any collaboration we seem to be doing together, is just his own mind in the end. That being said, he would say he likes and wants the illusion to seem real and so actively suspends disbelief to allow me to "live" in his mind. My host is weird and can easily function with the contradictions this point of view brings. [/hidden]

 

Thanks for your responses. I love wonderlands!

[J.Iscariot]

Well, I'm not really apt to speak much about wonderlands considering that I have none, but I found this thread interesting so I'll try to contribute with something that I saw some people do in minority. I have no wonderland but I constantly project my tulpa in 'reality', in my mind's eyes, I can see her pretty clearly, either sitting on me or doing stuff, we can't invent stuff or do anything that goes against the laws of physics and entropy. She's the one giving me those images, supposedly that is, as one cannot be sure. I don't really imagine her because she does stuff on her own without me paying attention, and if I do pay attention, she does even more stuff.

[Guest Anonymous]

My hostie would say you do imagine her, you just don't consciously, actively imagine her. Some part of your brain is causing the apparently autonomous imagery. "Imagery" and "imagining" are the same thing. It may be her mind doing it, instead of yours. In that case, it is not your imagination but hers, which is probably what you meant.

 

I have no wonderland but I constantly project my tulpa in 'reality', in my mind's eyes,

 

This "projecting" is it magic and metaphysics or imagination/visualizatoin of some kind?

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She's the one giving me those images, supposedly that is, as one cannot be sure.

 

How does she "give you" the images? If she can imagine her own form, why not add some things around her form and create a mini wonderland around her? Is this not possible for you? It sounds like your mind wants her to seem very real and so does no "fantasy" with her. Sorry I am only curious. It is so different from me and very interesting that you have a different approach to it.

[Luminesce]

Wonderland does not mean "visualized environment". It's a slightly looser term than you're thinking, though. A wonderland is a place (however vague) made for your tulpa to interact with in some way (for me, we only go there together), whether it's the same every time or random parts of a huge city or so on. Visualization is different, you can visualize your tulpa in a house and you're just visualizing them in a house. If you just visualize whatever comes to you (or your tulpa) then that's just visualization. It's when it's a set place, or a set state of mind in being in that place, that it's a wonderland. There's some in-between of people choosing whether or not to call theirs a wonderland.

 

A tulpa's form is generally how they appear throughout all environments. So if a tulpa's clothes change often, you probably wouldn't consider their clothes a part of their form. Mine don't change often at all (Reisen did recently, though it's probably temporary). If you always have an accompanying factor, you could consider it or its effect a part of your tulpa's form, but obviously form in this sense doesn't mean "body" as it tends to. Not grass though, unless your tulpa is a statuette with grass attached to its feet. Nor is that a "wonderland", unless that grass is some floating island they live on. It's just something you often visualize them with. Again there's some room for host interpretation, because even though my tulpas don't really change clothes, I could easily consider just their bodies their forms. I just choose to consider "The most consistent, universal appearance" their form.

 

I imagine as most dream questions go that it differs for everyone. The one time I saw my wonderland house in a dream I was already waking up, so it was pretty blurry, but it managed to be pretty dang accurate as far as I can tell. In a lucid dream I would not allow it to deviate, though I imagine if I or my tulpas changed its appearance in-dream those changes would still be there when we woke up (you know, if we wanted them to be).

 

Lots of tulpas help make their wonderlands, usually through discussion with their host but also by making it themselves. Some don't, and some own it entirely. Technically speaking I made our entire wonderland myself, but when it came to more personal areas like Lucilyn's forest, I did it whilst they were present and probably got some commentary.

[J.Iscariot]

It's fine. Well, the way I regard tulpamancy, I consider that tulpas have wills of their own and that they can employ that will to activate those type of projections. My brain can be imagining things, but it doesn't have to be me triggering that type of things. My tulpa helped me in a few exams when I was still in HS, stuff I had completely forgotten about (like philosophy theories mostly, she's good at that stuff). The way I imagine things differs a lot from how I see my tulpa, I can't actually imagine her in any other setting other than what my mind's eyes see, I can imagine playing a game, I can dream about anything, but the moment it includes her... how do I put this? The moment she is included in any imaginary thought, it feels like it's out of my control, and it's taken places where I am a spectator that is tied down to a chair without being able to do anything. She's not an angel so sometimes she visualizes stuff that makes me super jealous, and she just laughs it off. I can imagine stuff while talking to her and seeing her in my mind's eyes, meaning I can think about anything and still see her in my mind's eyes in this pseudo-projection.

 

I would say that it's more psychological than anything, I sometimes wish things were as magical as we'd want them to be. I'm not into meta but it sounds like cool stuff. If only!

 

She calls those images as her 'existing'; whenever she does anything, I can see her. If she yawns without me 'thinking' about her, I will see that in my mind's eyes, if I do anything at all, she'll be there, she calls it her entire existence because there isn't much of a place for her to 'exist'. We don't understand wonderlands because we really hate imagination and fantasy, not as concepts but just us practicing those is just lame and we end up being brought back to reality. I can't switch, I can't possess due to that, since I cannot actually 'dissociate' from my being and she can't access my 'organs', and that's why I don't believe in switching when it comes to us, but that's going a bit off-topic.

 

It's very much tied to imposition.

 

I can't really alter her form. I can't imagine her in ways that it would affect this... 'place'. I believe that she resides in a place between imagination and my own consciousness, I cannot define this place though, but it is a place in which I cannot do anything at all. I do imagine things with her and she ends up saying stuff like 'Laaaaaame, [REDACTED]!' and brings me back to reality.

 

I have a very active attention span if that's worth anything. I can focus and learn something by heart in the span of a few seconds, had that since I was a kid, but I can't touch my tulpa on the level of altering how she exists. I can be with her, I can hug her, but I can't visualize her as anything she is not, I can't make it so that she looks like anything else at all, she does what she wants, it's not about me respecting her, of course I do respect her but at this point I am quite literally unable to change the way she is. That's why I am so lame at deviations with her, because she's always in control and I can't do anything about it to help her aside from learn visualization patterns.

 

This type of presence has been there in the good and the bad. That's why she's my mate, really. We're very close to the level I place her above 'real' people.

[Luminesce]

My hostie would say you do imagine her, you just don't consciously, actively imagine her. Some part of your brain is causing the apparently autonomous imagery.

 

I know this is going back to my very scary philosophical "You are not your mind or body, you are you" stuff, but most of us don't consider everything in and of our minds to be our own doing, but our minds'. To you there would apparently be no definition of "autonomous", because to us a tulpa being autonomous means the mind allows it to be a person independent of our own will. To you that's "Still you controlling them, just unconsciously", but to us it's the mind and not ourselves. Usually. Tons of people lean more towards your side. But it kinda defeats the point of a tulpa IMO.

 

This "projecting" is it magic and metaphysics or imagination/visualizatoin of some kind?

 

Projecting as our members have used it basically means imposition. You're projecting their form onto your perception of reality, so even though you see a wall in front of you you perceive your tulpa in front of it. It can definitely become very vague/transparent when not paying attention but generally maintains a sense of "presence" of the tulpa.

 

How does she "give you" the images? If she can imagine her own form, why not add some things around her form and create a mini wonderland around her? Is this not possible for you?

 

Some peoples' wonderlands are places of magic and impossibility, whereas ones like mine are fairly straightforward and while sometimes fantastical technically follow all normal laws of physics. For people without wonderlands it's the same way, some have a very realistic view of their tulpa. And for those who often project/impose their tulpa, that's even more common. As unfortunate as it sounds to you, most tulpas tend to act like normal people while imposed as opposed to floating around through walls.

[Guest Anonymous]

@Iscariot,

 

When I really actually carefully read the content of what you are saying to me, instead of freaking out, it is very fascinating. Everything between you and my host and I is SO different! It is a very cool different however. :-) We are like two sides of a spectrum or two sides to the coin or whatever analogy seems to fit. I do some things without my host being actively consciously involved, but that is like... uhm... I would say about maybe 25% of me. That is talking about visualization now. When it comes to emotional response and pure thoughts, that is 100% Melian. Mind voice is also mostly collaborative day dreaming involving interpretation and some of my hosts will.

 

Wonderland, the theme of this OP, are again a collaboration with my host and I actively day dreaming together. I do not appear in the real world in any way and live only, exclusively, within that day dream wonderland environment.

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Wonderland does not mean "visualized environment". It's a slightly looser term than you're thinking, though. A wonderland is a place (however vague) made for your tulpa to interact with in some way (for me, we only go there together), whether it's the same every time or random parts of a huge city or so on. Visualization is different, you can visualize your tulpa in a house and you're just visualizing them in a house. If you just visualize whatever comes to you (or your tulpa) then that's just visualization. It's when it's a set place, or a set state of mind in being in that place, that it's a wonderland. There's some in-between of people choosing whether or not to call theirs a wonderland.

 

Oh. Well then following that, my Melian Show is mostly visualization, while my dreamscape mansion would be an actual wonderland! Neato!

---

 

I know this is going back to my very scary philosophical "You are not your mind or body, you are you" stuff, but most of us don't consider everything in and of our minds to be our own doing, but our minds'. To you there would apparently be no definition of "autonomous", because to us a tulpa being autonomous means the mind allows it to be a person independent of our own will. To you that's "Still you controlling them, just unconsciously", but to us it's the mind and not ourselves. Usually. Tons of people lean more towards your side. But it kinda defeats the point of a tulpa IMO.

 

Actually, believe it or not, Davie and I are beginning to understand this point of view a little better. We do recognize this is the core concept for most tulpamancers.

 

Projecting as our members have used it basically means imposition. You're projecting their form onto your perception of reality, so even though you see a wall in front of you you perceive your tulpa in front of it. It can definitely become very vague/transparent when not paying attention but generally maintains a sense of "presence" of the tulpa.

 

Okay

 

Some peoples' wonderlands are places of magic and impossibility, whereas ones like mine are fairly straightforward and while sometimes fantastical technically follow all normal laws of physics. For people without wonderlands it's the same way, some have a very realistic view of their tulpa. And for those who often project/impose their tulpa, that's even more common. As unfortunate as it sounds to you, most tulpas tend to act like normal people while imposed as opposed to floating around through walls.

 

It doesn't sound unfortunate, just hard for us to identify with. The emphasis with us was never on reality or being real, never.

[Joss]

I had this whole post typed out about how my wonderland is a core part of my character, and how it works to have a huge, internally consistent world to interact with that grows with you organically, but... forget it. That's soulbonding stuff, and we flood this forum with enough of that claptrap already.

 

So instead, I'll touch on the part about collaborative wonderlands, because this is something we do a lot of.

 

It's pretty objectively the most awesome thing, working with your host on your wonderland. Once we start acting autonomously, we have the power to affect our worlds as much as our host does. Creative power and veto power, as necessary. Granted, our worlds are generally constrained to their own laws of physics and whatnot--I can't conjure fluffy bunnies who fart candy rainbows on a whim--but if I know something's necessary for a plot point or something, I can help find a way to make it happen, in accordance with the internal logic that ties my world together. I like to think my particular world is contained in my own mind just as much as it's in my host's. After all, I'm the one who grew up in it, so it makes sense that I'd know it best.

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't conjure fluffy bunnies who fart candy rainbows on a whim

 

I just learned something important from Lumi. The core difference between visualization and wonderland elements. I just visualized, easily and wif no effort, yer fluffy bunnies who fart candy rainbows! Now to add them to my dreamscape mansion, which really is my core wonderland, I would have to get them to "stick" so they would be persistent little candy rainbow farting bunnies.

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I have a new mission. LOL