Vocality Trouble After 2 Years

[Guest]

A tulpa has things like emotional bleed, endeering qualities, and most importantly, your willingness to force them as a tulpa. Vegeta will never be a tulpa in your system unless you intend him to be. If you don't want him, you need to treat him as an intrusive thought. You could turn Vegeta into a tulpa if you wanted to.

 

Even if Vegita did everything just like a tulpa, he's not a tulpa until you accept him and treat him as such for 'a while'. There is no really good terms for a strong thoughtforn that acts like a tulpa, if you want them, they're probably going to be a tulpa, if you don't, then they're intrusive.

 

If you don't want them as a tulpa but want to keep them anyway for whatever reason, call them a muse or a daemon or whatever you want, that's a personal system decision. If later you decide to call them tulpas or soulbonds, whatever, that's an important distinction ethically and morally.

[TB]

A tulpa has things like emotional bleed, endeering qualities, and most importantly, your willingness to force them as a tulpa. Vegeta will never be a tulpa in your system unless you intend him to be. If you don't want him, you need to treat him as an intrusive thought. You could turn Vegeta into a tulpa if you wanted to.

 

Even if Vegita did everything just like a tulpa, he's not a tulpa until you accept him and treat him as such for 'a while'. There is no really good terms for a strong thoughtforn that acts like a tulpa, if you want them, they're probably going to be a tulpa, if you don't, then they're intrusive.

 

If you don't want them as a tulpa but want to keep them anyway for whatever reason, call them a muse or a daemon or whatever you want, that's a personal system decision. If later you decide to call them tulpas or soulbonds, whatever, that's an important distinction ethically and morally.

 

What exactly is emotional bleed and endeering qualities? Does emotional bleed mean feeling the emotion your tulpa is feeling? If so, how does one know it is their emotion and not just something you are feeling? I can't tell if I've ever felt one of her emotions or not.

 

And I definitely don't want Vegeta as a tulpa, and I don't think he wants me either. It was just an experiment to see if my mind would generate responses from characters on its own in their voice well enough to have a coherent conversation if I tried talking to them in my head and compare that experience to talking to my tulpa, so I could find what makes a tulpa's speech tulpa speech, and not just thoughts. I could have chosen anyone. I just find it disturbing with how similar it is to talking to my tulpa because I wouldn't consider Vegeta to be a thoughtform in any way because I don't see any reason at all how that could be possible, and I would be afraid that interacting with my tulpa is just whatever same mental mechanism that allows me to have fake interactions with other characters. Though it seems you are saying my take away from that experience shouldn't be that my tulpa may not be a tulpa/not talking, but that Vegeta was somehow an actual thoughtform similar to a tulpa?

[Guest]

It's really a gray area, yeah. For some there are just a lot of reasons to doubt. You're really approaching this systematically, it's more subjective than you might like at first. If you approach tulpamancy with a lab coat and scientific method, you might be able to convince yourself that it's all fake, but then do the same for your own existence, then you might be able to convince yourself that your personality is fake too.

 

So then who are you left with?

 

This is really a tough discussion because it requires belief in experience without solid proof. However, that's enough.

 

I argue that a fully developed tulpa is indistinguishable from a host, so does that mean the tulpa is a host? Or if you doubt that tulpa, then you must also doubt that host. If you knew neither, then you might find it hard to tell who was who.

 

Take it a step further and interview three people behind a certain. A singlet and a tulpa/host.

 

The fully developed tulpa will seem just as different as the singlet.

 

Functional tulpamancy is built on belief and sustained by experience with developed and developing tulpas. They can show you things that are so real, that the idea that they're fake will seem rediculous.

 

You're a skeptic, it's not your fault. You also might have personal issues complicating things, or life situations that are really hindering progress.

 

Though tulpas can help in profound ways, it can be hard given certain mindsets. If it's this hard, then change your mindset.

 

We're here to help, but you should read some guides and some PRs and you might have a better perspective.

[Flandre]

What exactly is emotional bleed

 

Feeling emotions you wouldn't normally be feeling because your tulpa is feeling them, or vice versa. You can only really tell if the emotions don't seem.. like what you think you should be feeling, but your tulpa is feeling them? It's surely pretty obvious. But note that by no means do all systems experience it, in fact, most don't according to a recent thread. We've never experienced it in the slightest.

[TB]

It's really a gray area, yeah. For some there are just a lot of reasons to doubt. You're really approaching this systematically, it's more subjective than you might like at first. If you approach tulpamancy with a lab coat and scientific method, you might be able to convince yourself that it's all fake, but then do the same for your own existence, then you might be able to convince yourself that your personality is fake too.

 

So then who are you left with?

 

This is really a tough discussion because it requires belief in experience without solid proof. However, that's enough.

 

I argue that a fully developed tulpa is indistinguishable from a host, so does that mean the tulpa is a host? Or if you doubt that tulpa, then you must also doubt that host. If you knew neither, then you might find it hard to tell who was who.

 

Take it a step further and interview three people behind a certain. A singlet and a tulpa/host.

 

The fully developed tulpa will seem just as different as the singlet.

This is all really hard. It's not great for me to talk about because it causes me more existential crisis, but as far as I understand it might be kind of true that one's own personality is fake. I've read and listened a lot about meditation, and as far as I understand, insight into no-self seems to imply that to me. I have to just not think about it though.

 

Either way, I just want them to be as real as I am. And I'm not sure if my current experiences prove that yet or not. I've spent a lot of time in my life basically roleplaying with characters by myself in my head, and if that has messed up my perception of my tulpa, because them supposedly talking on their own isn't much different from that as far as I can tell. I still can't tell if I'm not having tulpa experiences, or if I have just been desensitized to having tulpa-like experiences before knowing about tulpas and thus I don't register it or something.

 

Functional tulpamancy is built on belief and sustained by experience with developed and developing tulpas. They can show you things that are so real, that the idea that they're fake will seem rediculous.

If I could switch, I feel that would definitely be an extraordinary thing and be proof, because there'd be an extended period of time where I'm literally not controling my body and she would be, and anything she does while controling me could not be missed.

 

You're a skeptic, it's not your fault. You also might have personal issues complicating things, or life situations that are really hindering progress.

Yeah, I feel I may have both of those things...

 

Though tulpas can help in profound ways, it can be hard given certain mindsets. If it's this hard, then change your mindset.

 

We're here to help, but you should read some guides and some PRs and you might have a better perspective.

I will try to read/reread more of them, though from the few PR's I've read it usually just seems like a lot of progress really fast and now I just really don't know what that progress actually feels like for them based on reading text.

 

Feeling emotions you wouldn't normally be feeling because your tulpa is feeling them, or vice versa. You can only really tell if the emotions don't seem.. like what you think you should be feeling, but your tulpa is feeling them? It's surely pretty obvious. But note that by no means do all systems experience it, in fact, most don't according to a recent thread. We've never experienced it in the slightest.

If it is supposed to be extremely obvious, I guess I must not have it if I am not sure. I've felt strong emotions related to forcing and my tulpa before, though I don't know if that is emotional bleed, or me just feeling emotions.

[Guest]

Unless you're us and for some reason everyone feels their full emotional set in a specific place. I know who is having emotions by location, maybe we're the only ones that's ever happened to, but i didn't do that intentionally and it sure as heck feels metaphysical, but it's a valid experience and we have it. I have had emotional bleed from 5 or 6 different thoughtforms and all in different specific places in the body. My emotions seem to express in normally distributed places, so they overlap with other system members in some cases.

[TB]

Unless you're us and for some reason everyone feels their full emotional set in a specific place. I know who is having emotions by location, maybe we're the only ones that's ever happened to, but i didn't do that intentionally and it sure as heck feels metaphysical, but it's a valid experience and we have it. I have had emotional bleed from 5 or 6 different thoughtforms and all in different specific places in the body. My emotions seem to express in normally distributed places, so they overlap with other system members in some cases.

 

I see. I don't think anything similar to that happens to me. I'm still not sure what endearing qualities mean here for recognizing tulpa interacting, but I don't think I can reliably use emotional bleed as a sign since I'm not sure I have that. Is it just not normal to be able to auto generate dialogue of a character in your head, and maybe accidentally training that throughout a lot of my life through excessive daydreaming has messed me up, because it makes potentially legitimate tulpa interactions seem similar to it? I still have trouble identifying the thing that makes her interactions undeniably that of a tulpa rather than auto generated responses, or if the ability to do that is somehow the ability to potentially create and destroy vocal thoughtforms on a whim, which sounds arrogant and not something I'd like to say I can do, unless I overestimate thoughtforms or the difficulty of creating them.

 

Would it become safe to try learning to switch after 100,000 or so words of the typing practice? Switching just seems like it would be potentially very helpful with this situation and figure out what she is, and be one of the ridiculous undeniable things that is supposed to happen. It would probably be a very useful skill for a lot of other reasons, too.

 

I'm sorry I'm still here, I just want to know for sure what is going on with me. I really do not want to mess up and to make sure I can know exactly what is or isn't my tulpa so we can advanced healthily.

[Guest]

So you're not hearing what you want to hear, I get that, but yeah, i can create a thoughtform on the fly and talk to them. They are not necessarily the best conversation, but if I develop them through the course of a book or just interact with them, they either pick up personality or they grow it, so eventually they're pretty lucid.

 

Say i wanted to talk to a coal miner to see the world from thier perspective inside a coal mine, i could do that, but they wouldn't inherently know any more about coal mining than I do. They could be pretty believable though because I've watched the discovery channel, and they might pick up memories that i forgot I knew. Since it wouldn't be me 'remembering them' from my perspective, then it sounds like they knew it.

 

This is a weird example, but you have memories of things you long forgot how to access. Tulpas or other thoughtforms can build the bridge to that memory because they're looking from that perspective. Like a thoughtform that only thinks about orange things for example. Well you gotta expect they're only going to talk about the fruit for a while until they can have a chance to grow past that constraint.

 

As a tulpa matures their personality grows and their experiences add to their knowledge in a way that makes them very much like you and me. We have the advantage of a fully fleshed out personality, but they catch up pretty quick because they're starting with the basics preloaded and they borrow from you a lot early on. That perspective they have grows and differentiates them from you and what you might say.

 

Endeering in that you want them.

 

You're entirely missing the point of tulpamancy i think. Yes, your tulpa starts out being pretty much like any other random character, but the more you force them, the more they develop until they're very much their own person. So say, Vegeta, might make for a pretty good Vegeta clone, maybe you know a lot about the character and his mannerisms, but outside of the dragon ball universe, he'll learn things that help him in this universe. So he'll start out as a Vegeta clone, but he might end up someone completely different.

 

So a random walk-in looks and talks and seems like a tulpa, but they're not a tulpa right away, it takes effort on your part to help them rely more on themselves and less on you as the example of how they should act.

 

When do they become a tulpa? Well you need to first suspend disbelief and believe they're a tulpa, then eventually you won't need to take so much on faith. They'll prove it through a ton of subjective and personal ways that don't fit in neat little test tubes (scientifically speaking).

 

I would say my tulpas were a lot like their original characters on day one, but after a week, they were pretty different, and after a year, they're not at all like the originals, personality wise.

 

So you're Vegeta tulpa won't really be very similar to my Vegeta tulpa after a while.

 

So you're hung up on mechanics, voice, feel, wonderland dynamics, these are all very much system tools that you and your tulpa use to interact. They can get better and improve, but if you think switching is going to solve your problem, i don't agree. Let's say I could switch with a tree, then that's no different than forcing interactions with a tree. So sure, it could be a valid forcing technique, but it's usually considered an advanced tool because you and your tulpa need to be pretty well established and differentiated, or you'll more or less be in the same boat of doubt that you have now. You're not giving any credit to the development of tulpa your tulpa it seems. In that case your less likely to see their development at all.

 

In your very essence, you are pure thought, completely imaginary or completely real depending on how you look at it. Tulpas are the same.

 

You should really not be so worried about the mechanics, obviously you're capable of starting a tulpa with vocality, but you haven't been concentrating on them, your focused more about how they are or should be acting. Everyone is different here, but yeah, we already told you the basics and you know them, but you keep expecting it to be magic and amazing. It can be amazing at times, but that takes development. You get a huge headstart if you start with an already vocal character, i did that I guess.

 

You can keep asking these questions and I'll keep answering them, but others will probably grow weary of it. I am one of those people who keep doing the same thing over and over and do expect a different result, because sometimes persistence pays off, even when others are convinced they won't, but yeah, reality is not magic, but you can definitely have the same awsome experiences others talk about here.

 

Reread this whole thread, i think you're missing the point somewhere.

[Piano Soul]

You should worry about switching when you and your tulpa are both ready, nobody can tell you when that will be. It's probably best to get into a state of mind where you're confident in your tulpa's existence/sentience and her ability to think/speak before moving on to those more "advanced" things anyway. Diving right into switching would be a tiny bit of a stretch imo, probably would be better to focus on just possession/fronting before trying to switch. Failing at switching time and time again only caused us more doubt, not less. Fronting, though, negates doubt.

[Vādin]

Hello, what's the name of your tulpa, please ?

 

Instead of learning switching, your tulpa could learn possession with you : try together to have her twitch your fingers, for instance, then your hand, your arm, and other parts of the body. That's a very good practice to destroy one's host's doubts.