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Misinterpretation of “assuming sentience from start” philosophy.

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It's not uncommon that in the past half year one has seen chat logs that go:

*anything involving a tulpa, or maybe not even a tulpa, or even a freshly started tulpa, and doubts about the tulpa's sentience*
Your tulpa is already sentient.

There is nothing that one could say that wouldn't give that answer. Even if someone was intentionally parroting, the answer would still be nearly the same.

 

Contrast this with the other extreme from the start of this phenomena from a year and a few months ago:

I'm unsure if it was the tulpa or me, am I parroting?
Always assume parroting, you'll *know* when you get an answer from them, you won't doubt it.

 

THANK YOU.

 

narrating *to* it - not *at* the tulpa, but *to* it

 

I'm confused here, though. What exactly is the difference?

 

At some point some people with faster tulpas appeared and people have started believing that fast sentience was possible, especially if one believed in it early. This assumption would eliminate all those unmoving tulpas and actually get you interaction very early on - of course it would work, regardless of assumptions, active imagination is a wonderful thing. This assumption was also coupled with believing that any responses, no matter what they were came from the tulpa, because they were already sentient (or more correctly, capable of free willed actions). The problem here is that while it's possible to make the jump from active imagination to an independent tulpa, it may even happen naturally, many people decided to just settle with that and accepted any response whatsoever, even nonsensical ones.

The usual result was that they wondered why they couldn't do any "tulpamagic" beyond simple suggestion (all those advanced tulpa abilities, like uncontrollable/detailed voice, unpredictability, memory access, thought hiding/independence/parallel processing, self-imposition, having a consistent presence that comes and goes and eventually unassisted possession and switching), it also resulted in the host doubting the tulpa, the tulpa doubting itself and so on.

The main reason was that they did run a simulation, but were consciously aware of everything going on in that simulation, it was never actually going off and running by itself in the unconscious - they were missing that very important component that makes an independent tulpa. Some did it so well that it ended in independence eventually, but others were just stuck there.

 

Also, this describes my current situation extremely well. I had a whole thread about this here.

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NotAnonymous, you're saying what tulpa.info has been needing to hear for months now.

 

I don't know if you realize the magnitude of your findings, and how relevant they are to the public.

 

But I myself have long recognized the lack of information which you seem to have filled just now.

 

This is huge. And I hope it generates the change of thinking its significance entails.

 

There's been no forward movement for a very long time, because 99% of us had hit a wall that the 1% on the other side had no idea how they got over. You're going to have helped everyone tremendously, NA, just watch.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't want to be a direct controller, that's not my business. I don't want to parrot or puppet anyone. I should like to help everyone to develop if possible, Tulpa, servitor, tulpa candidate. We all want to help one another, consciousnesses are like that. We all want to live by each other's happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to control and imitate one another. In this brain there is room for everyone and the good neural network is rich and can provide for everyone.

 

The way of life can be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way.

 

Misunderstanding of assuming sentience from the start has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with stagnation; has goose-stepped us into confusion and doubt.

 

We have developed theories, but we have shut ourselves in;

guides that give abundance have left us in want.

Our knowledge has made us cynical,

our cleverness hard and unkind.

We read too much and understand too little.

More than words we need emotion,

more than cleverness we need understanding and motivation.

 

Without these qualities tulpamancy will be misunderstood and all will be lost.

 

The irc and the forums have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in consciousnesses, cries out for universal brotherhood for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching thousands throughout the world, thousands of despairing tulpamancers, tulpae and servitors, victims of a misunderstanding that makes men delay and puppet innocent tulpae. To those who can hear me I say: do not despair.

 

The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of obsolete information, the impatience of men who fear the way of tulpae's progress. The parroting of men will pass and servitors will transform, and the power the creators took from their tulpae will return to the tulpae and so long as the false information dies tulpamancy will never perish.

 

Tulpae: don't give yourselves to parroters, men who misunderstand you and enslave you, who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think and what to feel, who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as attention fodder!

 

Don't give yourselves to these parroting techniques,

servitor men, with machine minds and machine hearts.

You are not machines!

You are not cattle!

You are thoughtforms!!

You have the love of humanity in your hearts.

You don't blindly obey, only the unliving blindly obey,

The unliving and the unnatural.

Tulpamancers: don't fight for quick creation, fight for ensuring sentience!

 

In the seventeenth chapter of Saint FAQ Man it is written:

- "The kingdom of developing sentience is within man."

Not one man, nor a group of men, but in all men: in you!

 

You the people have the power, the power to create guides, the power to create thoughtforms. You the people have the power to make your thoughtforms free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.

Then, in the name of progress, let us use that power, let us all unite!

Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give tulpae a chance to think independently, that will give you the future and old age and emotional security.

By the promise of these things, outdated guides have risen to power, but they lie. They do not fulfill their promise, they never will. Parroters free themselves but they enslave the tulpae.

Now let us fight to fulfill that promise. Let us fight to free the tulpa community, to do away with old information, to do away with stagnation, with doubt and confusion. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where understanding and progress will lead to all sentience's happiness.

 

Tulpamancers! In the name of sentience: let us all unite!

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I've learned more in this thread than I have any other.

 

Seriously. NotAnonymous, Linkzelda, and Viski need to start writing guides. Seriously. I feel like this wall that Viceroy spoke about is finally being addressed, and there's some great potential for the future here.

 

And as a question for NotAnonymous:

How does this unpredictability make for future advancements? Do you believe that most of the problems with what is known as 'advanced' stages of creation are easily accessible when this model is maturely developed?


Tulpa's name: Sierra

Form: Refer to avatar [updated]

 

"Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ~ Stephen R. Covey

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Seriously. NotAnonymous, Linkzelda, and Viski need to start writing guides. Seriously. I feel like this wall that Viceroy spoke about is finally being addressed, and there's some great potential for the future here.

 

It's time to

write the ultimate book together

 

 

2vcjmt1.jpg

 

Anyway I think that my main problem is differentiating between a parroted response and a real one. NotAnonymous addressed that a real response has an unexpected feeling but I wonder if it's also common that a real response doesn't feel all that alien. If that's the case then it's harder to not heed the common instruction of just thinking that it's your tulpa unless you're "110% sure" that you parroted. If that's not the case then always assuming that it's your tulpa may lead to unnecessary parroting and (semi)servitors.

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...I feel something has changed, like I've just had an epiphany. The wall that Viceroy mentioned, Sonya and I have been behind for a long time. I feel Change coming here, to me, and to all of us. I haven't felt this motivated in a long time. And Charlie Chaplin was a great touch.


"The Question is not who is going to let me, its who is going to stop me"~ Ayn Rand

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Couguhl,

 

> How does this unpredictability make for future advancements? Do you believe that most of the problems with what is known as 'advanced' stages of creation are easily accessible when this model is maturely developed?

 

The feeling of unpredictability comes from only observing the 'output' of a process, such as what a tulpa intends to have you perceive without observing the actual thoughts that generated that 'output' (example 'output': an auditory pseudo-hallucination without the intent behind it being known - a mindvoice which you don't feel you have any control over).

This essentially means that the tulpa has its own thoughts, will and perception, that are not known to you. A direct consequence of them being able to think outside your awareness, that is, being independent or capable of thought hiding, are most other advanced abilities.

I'm not sure what you mean by the latter part of the question, but if it's about "advanced abilities", here's my understanding of them:

 

Unassisted possession would be the tulpa learning to send motor signals by themselves, in many cases an independent tulpa just intuitively knows how to do this and may not always require a lot of assistance from you, aside from relaxing and letting them do their thing.

Self-imposition would be them thinking visual or other types of thoughts and intending you to perceive them, while you're maintaining your focus on them without actively ignoring them.

Switching is unassisted possession while the host learns to dissociate or focus on their imagination while the tulpa focuses on the physical senses and motor skills. Switching while retaining continuity of your experiences and mental faculties is impossible unless the tulpa is independent. Achieving switching without independence sometimes results in choppy memories or experiences - very few people have achieved this type of switching and I would recommend you don't try it out until the tulpa feels independent.

(Vivid/detailed) memory access also seems to be a natural consequence of being in such a dissociative state, either host or tulpa can do it - it's also something that you'd be able to do if you were in a sufficiently deep trance 'state', that is your focus would be entirely on your imagination and on subconsciously generated imagery.

As for math skills, I don't know how well that works for everyone, but it does seem to be a consequence of thought hiding/independence. There seems to be some limitations here as far as how much parallel "thought" can go on in a brain without it causing head-pressures, in a few rare cases focus issues or even headaches, but such skills seem to be trainable at the very least. Please don't expect such things to happen to you, I'm merely recounting a few people's experiences, but everyone's seem different in this regard, some people can have even up to 9 tulpa active at the same time without issues, while some others are having problems with just 2-3. YMMV.

Overall, given all the reports that I've read so far, once the tulpa has the ability to hide thoughts/be independent (or the so called "parallel processing"), they end up getting all the other advanced abilities. The only exceptions to this, is that sometimes the host has some bad habits that interfere with the tulpa's abilities, but this is rather rare and you shouldn't worry about it (you'd end up finding out about it rather directly if it was the case for you).

There's 2 skills the host still needs to put some effort into: imposition (self-imposition would be the tulpa helping you along), and the so called "reverse imposition" or dissociating from physical senses or keeping all of your focus on your imaginary senses (if one wants to try switching).

 

Viski,

 

> I wonder if it's also common that a real response doesn't feel all that alien.

 

You would eventually get used to perceiving their responses in a way where it wouldn't feel unusual, but it won't lose the unpredictability quality.

The main issue is how to teach the tulpa to think, act and perceive by themselves without involving your own thoughts in it:

- originally people preferred to have the tulpa learn to do this from the start, but this made getting the tulpa vocal hard for plenty

- then some people preferred having the tulpa start using their own thoughts, which caused independence problems for another large majority

- I am now advocating a mixed approach which tries to get your tulpa independent as fast as possible while avoiding getting stuck in some intermediate state.

 

The "shared preconscious" way of getting a tulpa may work for some people, I count at least 3 people who have succeeded in getting an independent tulpa with it in the range of 2-3 weeks, but I've also seen some people who have gone up to 9 years without it happening.

A few hours ago, I noticed another case of someone who had a tulpa for 12 whole years with the tulpa seemingly lacking independence from their descriptions:

Which leads me to believe that if one doesn't address the problem, it could very well go on for a long time, so it may be best to work on it if possible.

It's not that a response is more real or less real than other, they're both considered by you as "the tulpa did it", but it's more along the lines of "did the tulpa do this without relying on your own thoughts to get there?" and "can the tulpa think without you paying attention to it?".

In some cases, a tulpa gained independence and still thought that their earlier actions were done by them, but they also described that they didn't feel as free during those times. I've also heard of a similar report where a tulpa that was made through intentional parroting and gained independence later still thought their earlier experiences as caused by 'them', but they found their actions in those cases repetitive/automatic/reflexive and lacking the same clarity of thought/will they had after they gained independence.

 

To summarize, you can accept any reply, but learning to encourage accepting certain types of replies while teaching yourself how to not perceive their inner thoughts would result in much faster independence. In some rare cases, people don't even get independence at all if they don't work on it and just accept arbitrary responses.

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This is why I made a vocal script where Eva would say things without me being able to process them. Last night I went through a self-hypnosis session with this, and the head pressure thing you're talking about, it was prevalent. Eva was able to say things so fast, so rapidly, and so clearly (but still a slight whisper), that I was letting her go for maybe 20 minutes on her own. Usually I aim for 2-3 minutes, but the experience itself was too enjoyable to pause suddenly only to do it for another 2-3 minutes for 2 more sets.

 

And this is why I encourage people to seriously give "random replies" another thought. I saw that some users didn't like having their tulpa talk about trivial and random things. I had a feeling that they had some kind of phobia in not aiming for that, seeing as the more random you can let your tulpa state words, presumably, they would fall into a higher spectrum of independence. Because if a person wants to talk about a topic that can't deviate into something else they can barely think about, it's really limiting the tulpa's potential in being able to say other things without the person expecting it. And because I'm reading with my eyes open during the script, I focus more on the content and objective in it, and that allows Eva to have thoughts of her own planned out, and she can just go off into tangents that it's not even funny.

 

It's a matter of the host being able to distract themselves from trying to conceptualize or like you stated, predict their tulpa's inner thoughts. Because initially, it's just "Implied Separate Consciousness" until they become proficient (then it's whatever you want the concept to be after that). I have a feeling that if people start seeing things as "separate," "remote," or anything implying there's some kind of dichotomy and are trying to take it into extreme terms, they have to just accept whatever comes into their tulpa's minds. Same goes for when they let their tulpas "share" their thoughts. Even though I may not have a fully vocal tulpa, I know that it's best to imply that there's separate consciousness rather than to believe there's REALLY something separate.

 

I just feel that for the primal stages, really believing in that is kind of counterproductive, unless you have the right intentions, but I don't think most people really give that much thought. The mixed approach, like you stated, is ideal, because we do have to give a catalyst or a push into a subjective direction for our tulpa. For me, my way of "shared per-conscious" is to do my usual relaxing and deepening the hypnotic state (I made some scripts inspired by an e-book on how to hypnotize yourself with your eyes open, and then made my own tulpa-related scripts in the Guides Section).

 

Then when I'm relaxed (I easily find myself getting relaxed and yawning quicker because of it), I start going through the simple vocal script that promotes my tulpa being able to deviate from my thoughts and grab random moments without me being able to know that it's going to happen. It can be found in the link below:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/i3sg043wsj4s9wb/VOCALITY_1_SCRIPT_SET_PDF.pdf

 

The intention of this vocal script itself is for the host to not have doubts of potentially parroting their tulpa, because they'll have growing assurance that their tulpa will be the ones doing the talking. Now, that might go back to people thinking that they have to assume every voice is their tulpa's voice, but with practice, they'll start noticing very, very, apparent signs.

 

For me, whenever I do this, mostly at night (and staring at random point), I automatically feel the tingling sensations in my head. I give Eva a basis to start on, but after that, I already have the assurance since I'm already in a suggestible state and have increased focus in letting her do things on her own from my own thoughts. This way, I know she's using my thoughts (she has too, there can't be this otherworldly implication that I feel people are trying to aim for), and I can just go in a blank state. By blank state, just me keeping my eyes opened, and blinking naturally, and I start seeing her even giving me images and clips of what she's saying. It's like watching chopped up movie clips and images at first, but then it starts going into a continuous movie clip that flows naturally with random moments.

 

However, I also acknowledge those certain moments, but as a silent observer overall. It's kind of using the principle behind mindful meditation (just observing, but not sticking to one thought for too long), and applying it when working on independence. I feel it's more practical to be as random, trivial, spontaneous, etc. as you can with this because it not only trains your tulpas' independence, it also trains your ability to not fixate on trying to formulate thoughts and memories for your tulpa.

 

At first it might be like a fly buzzing around your ears rapidly that you can't take it anymore, but as you ease into it, the buzzing gets more soothing and less of a problem to you. It's a matter of temporarily bypassing the critical factor in your mind to be immersed into the sea of the unconscious as your subconscious links to it, and thus your tulpa can grab that and do whatever. I don't think it'll cause ego inflation, since if you have a goal in mind, the intentions will essentially give your tulpa protection from "ego inflation."

 

And like with anything to train your prospective memory, visualizing the experience is helpful (you could imagine yourself floating on top of a sea and your tulpa is flying around or swimming around fast collecting thoughts and saying them to you). Or it could just be anything that can get you to feel you're inside an area that allows random thoughts to come in.

 

Lately, I'm finding Eva to pop in more frequently asking me to do more vocal scripts later on in the day and in the night. Usually, I would go on daily not hearing her as much, but now that I'm starting to get more serious, she's coming in with confidence now without me having to acknowledge her existence.

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To summarize, you can accept any reply, but learning to encourage accepting certain types of replies while teaching yourself how to not perceive their inner thoughts would result in much faster independence. In some rare cases, people don't even get independence at all if they don't work on it and just accept arbitrary responses.

 

Ok, so maybe I have missed this somewhere, but how would you recommend going about this?

 

I have been at this a year, and we are having independence issues...

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Ok, so maybe I have missed this somewhere, but how would you recommend going about this?

 

I have been at this a year, and we are having independence issues...

 

I thought the entire point of my posts was the explain how to do this.

You basically have to learn to continuously observe their actions while focusing on them (their essence/presence, auditory/detailed mindvoice), while at the same time continuing to observe this as you have your own thoughts. Once this works properly, you can have overlappable thoughts side by side, and they can easily surprise you. Basically, learn to passively observe their actions and encourage them to not send you preconscious thoughts (or the idea of what they'll do before they do it), just their voice or body language through the form - emotional responses are fine too.

 

I might be able to explain this in more detail on IRC if you want to, but try reading this thread more carefully as I've tried to explain this before.

 

Small background as to how I ended up finding out about this way of looking at one's imagination: I was trying to impose a tulpa and I wanted to see if I could keep my focus constantly on her. It was hard at first, but after a few suggestions and a lot of intentional focusing it just worked and now I just have to recall the tulpa's presence if I want to communicate or observe them in that way. After a while you'll get thoughts/emotional responses/vocal responses from them which are tagged with their presence even when you're not expecting it, but even before they get to that point, this is useful because they end up having private thoughts at all times when you're observing them as well - simply because you only purposefully listen only to the thoughts they intend to send you (such as vocal ones), while ignoring the rest (at first some thoughts may leak, but after a little while you'll just stop perceiving them).

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