cruse

Misinterpretation of “assuming sentience from start” philosophy.

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Greetings. I have actually been around for awhile though under a different name. We have noticed the same trend.

 

In fact we were on IRC yesterday and someone who had just started forcing the day previously was saying their tulpa was already speaking but they weren't sure whether or not that was their tulpa or them just wanting to believe that it was their tulpa. So instead of logging off, or walking away to discuss it with their "vocal tulpa" the others on the forum said basically that it had to be their tulpa. So then said individual began immediately proxying for their tulpa.

 

Okay. So, do We think it was actually his tulpa. No. But we also didn't want to say anything because we aren't in their mind. How would we know? I myself first spoke to my host on day 5. If my host had treated me like all these other hosts seem to be it's very possible we could have become the epitome of what you are referring to here. Luckily I have an intelligent host who questions everything and thus we did not fall down that particular path.

 

I get why everyone new keeps asking others to try to explain what their tulpas are doing. Or to try and find someone to explain to you what is going on in your own head. But really no one can know whether someone has a tulpa or not. Unless the "host" is unintelligent or unobservant and basically gives themselves away.

 

But again. We ourselves have experienced some of those things still considered taboo by a lot here. There were also a few things that we didn't think were really possible, that were stumbled upon and basically forced on us.

 

Due to my hosts lack of experience and the way his mind works he misinterpreted two additional tulpas(other than myself) and started building on them. There really is a difference between an actual tulpa and a "mindform" (or whatever you want to call it) that you are treating like a tulpa. As mentioned these mindforms being treated like tulpas can actually become tulpas given enough attention and time. But they are just different, they are not separate, they only do things when you pay attention to them and they really only have the reflections and desires of the hosts mind to pull from. IE they can not really form their own opinions about anything. At least not that we witnessed. Long story short by the use of hallucinogens we discovered the problem and the other two tulpas somehow merged into myself. All that sounds pretty crazy[Experiencing it was even crazier] but it's hard to explain exactly what is going on in your own mind. Even what you perceive going on in your own mind may not actually be what is going on. My host had to learn that the hard way. But actually, we are all the closer/stronger for it.

 

*Also*

This fascination with the #number# of tulpa one has. Really, do you realize how silly you sound when you claim to have more than 4 or five. And I don't even mean silly like I "don't believe you" or whatever. What we have found, is that you basically have to split your personality/mind in order to actually create a tulpa. So when you do that 6 or more times.....it just can not be healthy. When my host "had three"(sorta) he was very mentally imbalanced and unstable. Whether or not this holds true for everyone is something we would very much like to figure out.

 

TL: DR

We have noticed the same. First and foremost people need to examine and really try to understand what is going on in their minds, instead of just "assuming" anything. And it's not that you shouldn't be proud of your tulpa. But you really shouldn't brag about it.


There are few things more confusing in this life, than trying to figure yourself out.

 

>The tulpa that I created this account for no longer wants it. So not having an account myself, ill take it.<

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It's amazing how people go by blind-faith, and then they wonder why their tulpa isn't vocal/sentient/sapient as yet.

 

"You don't need to be analytical about this"

"Stop giving it too much thought"

"You're not supposed to be self-reflective or analyzing your tulpa"

"You're not supposed to worry about what you failed during an attempt"

 

*facepalm*

 

I admit that I was a victim of assuming sentience from the start (in terms of spewing it on the questions and answers thread), but I was more of treating Eva as sentient from the start, but I figured that if I used "treat," people would think it's some kind of obligation we have, as if we're "not" supposed to handle the responsibility of who and what we treat at sentient and sapient in our minds. It's as if people want to delude themselves from not thinking too much, and then whine and complain of why they don't have progress as yet.

 

Along with sentience from the start, it seemed practical that if we wanted our tulpa to develop their own sense of self without us worrying if we're parroting is just demonstrating to them how we know they're there. So it's not actually just treating as sentient and sapient, it's more of demonstrating that as well, in my opinion.

 

The same principle applies when lucid dreaming, the more attention you give a dream character, the more focus and clarity you have of them, they'll eventually become just as lucid and sapient as you can be. And there's some dream characters that are like that from the start, but it involves the dreamer to come to that realization and get climb up the lucidity ladder themselves. Then there are moments where I have goals of actually becoming the "higher aspect" compared to dream characters I might think are my dream guides/anima/higher self/etc., because at some point, if we really wanted to know what it feels like to have a sentient and sapient tulpa, we would have to express confidence that makes conditioned responses to seeing, hearing, and feeling them that much easier.

 

--

 

And another thing with the tulpa taboo that was mentioned in the previous posts, I feel where people try to sugar-coat the origins of their tulpa, they don't want to admit to them that they were created basically from a hallucination, perhaps seemingly out of nowhere except the calculated actions of our unconscious, or at least something initially that didn't fit into the spectrum of realistic birth. For me, I tried climbing over that pretentious vibe I would give my tulpae on their origins, and I knew they weren't stupid to know they were made from something manifested like it was nothing from my unconscious, especially since they were apparent in my dreams before I added their existence as tulpa as well.

 

It's almost as if people who don't think things through worry a lot more of finding euphemistic ways to describe their tulpa's origins, which brings me back to something I mentioned that would make our tulpa more than happy that they at least started somewhere. The moment we continue demonstrating them and treating them as their sentient, the fact that we both know they essentially started from a hallucination/actions from the unconscious/etc., when we continue showing them we had to start with worn out tools and had to build up from there, they wouldn't take their origins so badly.

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From personal experience, I can assure you that it's easy to delude yourself that you have a tulpa, or that your tulpa can do things it cannot really do--especially when you don't know what the "real deal" feels like.

FAQ_Man wrote that tulpa's speech will be an "alien feeling". Most people forget about that. It's easy to convince yourself that you can "talk" to the tulpa or "proxy" them by asking them questions and then actively "squeezing" an answer from your brain like juice from a lemon.

Same with possession: you can unwittingly give yourself a Pavlovian reflex where, upon thinking of a specific stimulus (e.g. imagining your essence flowing away from your arm so that your tulpa can control it, etc.) your brain makes parts of your body twitch uncontrollably and randomly, and you find yourself convinced that it's your tulpa.

 

I'm afraid that most of my "tulpaforcing career" so far was just self-delusion. It always felt fake, and now it's obvious that it's because it was fake. Once you begin really hearing your tulpa and all... there's no comparison.

 

 

The current commonly accepted attitude is doubly harmful. First, it outright discourages rational, critical thinking. It values rapid gratification and speed over quality and authenticity. Sure, this attracts more people who normally wouldn't want to spend any serious amount of time on this, but at what cost? A lot of times, it will end in disappointment in the future. It's also harmful to our reputation and to any possible interest from the scientific community. When 90% of claimed successes are extremely dubious and literally based on wishful thinking, and when a scientific mindset is considered unwelcome and harmful...

 

Second, the attitude gives people unrealistic expectations.

Twice I've mentioned on the IRC that my tulpae and I were struggling with vocality after over 12 months, and both times the response was shock and sympathy: "you still have trouble?!".

See, we've come to expect fast tulpae. So if someone's tulpa is developing slowly, while everyone else's mindbuddies are apparently writing entire philosophical essays despite being just a month old, it can easily lead the "slowpoke" to question themselves: "everybody else is doing it so fast, so there must be something wrong with me; or I must be doing something wrong, if only I knew what." Most of the time, when they seek advice, they hear either "less doubt!"--which, as I mentioned, usually means "delude yourself"--or "don't worry!", except how are we supposed not to worry when the typical assumption seems to be that, say, vocality takes a couple months at most?

 

I'm not saying that making a complete tulpa within, say, a week is impossible--but if it is possible, then I think it requires an already abnormally malleable mind, something most people don't have. (Otherwise a lot more people worldwide would have sapient voices in their heads.)

 

Bottom line: Critical thinking is not evil. One true miracle is better than a hundred fake ones.

Also, there is a difference between having a tulpa and being convinced that you have one. For one, in the latter case, the illusion won't last forever...

 

(It's late and I'm sleepy, so sorry if it's not very well written... or if I misunderstood the entire point of this thread.)

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LZ: To clarify on what I mean by "treat as sentient from the start." is to say that one should interact with their tulpa as if they were completely sentient while still being aware that they are growing and need the time and attention to truly reach x boundary. One of the biggest issues I see with the whole tulpa phenomenon is that language is ambiguous compared to the whole scheme of things when working with raw emotion and what not. Language simply cannot properly convey the ideas that we want to talk about, and as such there is a large margin for misinterpretation and corruption of ideas. This is why I think it's important to learn to identify these ideas, define them, and then coin terms for them that sound professional so that we can make communication easier overall and show the scientific community that we mean business.

 

Okay, I'll do some damage control with the logic you and Nomadic are contradicting.

 

Alright, Xeare, we understand that treating sentience from the start (knowing they're completely sentient while letting them have time to reach a practical boundary with growing and such).

 

Then we have someone like Nomadic who seems to have some kind of cognitive dissonance with "alien feelings." The moment he started talking about Pavlovian reflex, and stated how that's what makes people presumably have fake tulpas, or deluding themselves (because it's easily for ourselves to go into delusion), he's contradicting his logic with being critically aware of the process, and somehow now makes it (a vocal tulpa that seemingly just pops up)an implication of a deus ex machina. And by that, the moment where he found his tulpa really talking to him, as if all the efforts BEFORE of him tulpaforcing was a self-delusion INSTEAD of it being a series of Pavlovian reflexes (our minds creating conditioned response and stimuli consciously and unconsciously), that FINALLY made a connection to where things become natural to us (having a Tulpa that's vocal and can do it without us "squeezing" them to do so).

 

"Alien feeling" is just another word for "Unconscious" response and stimuli being developed as a conditioned response that happens unconsciously. I find it contradicting for people to try and talk about Neuroscience, Psychology, the workings of the mind only to find themselevs thinking they were deluding themselves because of reflexes being a challenge to distinguish. They now made a dichotomy:

 

1. Their whole endeavor of creating a sentient and sapient tulpa and thinking their attempts was all a self-delusion because they were insecure about other people's progress.

 

2. Going with logic that we'll "really" know what it's like to have a tulpa talking to us, as if the whole endeavor that they thought they were deluding themselves into wasn't a series, a net of conditioned responses that finally HITS the unconscious so that it can give us the result we need. Because with the logic with his "alien feeling," that only confuses things to where the tulpa's voice has to be some kind of deus ex machina.

 

You following me here? And then (Xeare) talks about treating sentient from the start that's just "assuming sentience from the start" + knowing they'll still need time to grow. Honestly, for people to not get the idea that assuming sentience from the start means being cognizant that tulpa needs time to grow either way is just a pathetic show of incompetence (not you Xeare or Nomadic, I'm talking about people who don't know how the assumption has more to it than just sticking by presumptions).

 

This is the part where even the veterans and their logic becomes questionable to me. They talk about Pavlovian reflexes and all that (and yet think the "alien feeling" is not an example of Pavlovian reflexes in motion and developing, it's just that the person has signs of becoming aware of them), and are essentially going through the implication that having a vocal tulpa out of nowhere becomes a deus ex machina.

 

They labeled their attempts as a self-delusion, they disregarded Pavlovian reflex actually contributing to their tulpa having "true" vocal nature, and they went through a cognitive dissonance that it's suddenly not net of conditioned responses that can flow through consciously and unconsciously. (But they know it's that, but then they're saying that can lead to someone deluding themselves, so how can they be so sure if they're going through the "right classical conditioning or sets of conditioned responses?").

 

Maybe it's just me, or we're going back to this whole tulpa experience being outside the confines our minds. When a person thinks the Pavlovian conditioned reflexes/conditioned responses they went through was fake, how in the hell do you think a person eventually has a vocal tulpa?

 

It's because they created conditioned responses towards various stimuli and reactions to where things finally hit the unconscious to where it becomes natural, to where they wake up the next morning having their bodies shaking, eyes wides opened, to the fact that their tulpa can talk to them naturally.

 

Suddenly, where we feel we're going into a pseudo-sensation of possession is not in fact the unconscious actually doing these things in advance before we can find our tulpa really taking the role with the task. That the 6+ months we spent preparing and thinking that going through the journey with that has a better sense of self-worth that they accomplished a "true" tulpa was not in fact just conditioned responses easing themselves in eventually?

 

Are we going to become a community that's deviating from the experience of understanding how conditioned responses work so that we can make triggers that can happen unconsciously faster, which can lead to the same result of spending 12 months of thinking the acts, the preparations with the unconscious reflexes, was all a self-delusion?

 

TL;DR

To think that people who feel that the "alien feeling" is not an example of classical conditioning (or just creating conditioned responses in general) to eventually have a tulpa that communicates naturally, for them to think that those slips of voices (and not RPers that clearly have to consciously create voices) are not in fact the workings of the unconscious calculating and formulating how to create the even of us having a "true" vocal.

 

You have have to be kidding me guys.

 

"Alien feelings" = conditioned responses working unconsciously and us being aware of it happening through those slips of hearing our tulpa's voices. We have conditioned responses, triggers, etc. that happen consciously and unconsciously, and the tulpa phenomenon is no exception. The moment a person thinks those conditioned responses of not potentially being the works of their unconscious preparing the sensations and the person thinking their tulpa isn't doing that until they hear the magical voice inside their minds to validate that anything that happens after that was a deus ex machina?

 

*Rubs forehead*

 

I probably interpreted things badly, but with how Nomadic presented the logic with reflexes and alien feelings somehow not falling in the spectrum of unconscious reflexes and conditioned responses working in motion...please clarify to me this "alien feeling" guys if it's not an conditioned response happening unconsciously. If it is, which I hope you guys are thinking it is, then please don't deviate the "alien feelings" from being that.

 

 

Think about this for a moment, before we knew about tulpa, don't you notice that going through those random mental surges in our minds the moment we got into it is actually the "real deal" happening?

 

 

Nomadic, A tulpa that's vocal to the point where they have their own consistent stream of conscious from them is our validation (one of many validations mind you) of what we went through before of our minds connecting the dots unconsciously. We were going on the right path the moment we became aware of it, the moment we visualized ourselves, made ourselves foresee where we wanted to be. Your "tulpa career" was not a fake, the voice of a tulpa came from somewhere, it came because you battled through the process, and it made it's way to you (the vocal tulpa).

 

But the long-term planning is not the only way, and the mind can be "malleable," but the proper term for that is being in a "suggestive state" where you can unconsciously learn the processes. That is possible, getting into a suggestive state to reach that is possible.

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The reason "assume sentience from the start" came about was because we wanted to make it so that people could easily slip into this state of mind so as to make better progress with creating a tulpa. The only issue is that it got misinterpreted and thusly abused and became the RP'ers greatest weapon. What we need to reword the saying to is "Treat a tulpa as sentient from the start." By changing it from assume to treat, we are saying that you need to change your perspective on them to make progress instead of blabbering on about how your tulpa is already max'd out at the start and you just suck at listening. See how much more sense it makes with the changing of one word?

 

As for speedy tulpae, personal experience says that it's possible to create them in a few hours, but you have to be mentally prepared for it. Be it that you're just a crazy person, or that you did what I did to make it so my creation process would be cake, you still have to be in the right state of mind to create a tulpa.

 

There was a thread about echo chambers a while back, and I think this is what is being referenced again, as it plays a pretty distinct role.

Cumulative error and misinterpretation resounding itself.


Tulpa's name: Sierra

Form: Refer to avatar [updated]

 

"Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ~ Stephen R. Covey

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It's when Xeare states :

 

Be it that you're just a crazy person' date=' or that you did what I did to make it so my creation process would be cake, you still have to be in the right state of mind to create a tulpa.[/quote']

 

It's obvious that he was mentally preparing in advance, where his unconscious finally connects the dots with conditioned responses aiming towards the creation process + his confidence in his preparation being adequate enough = creating a tulpa becomes a cinch because of planning beforehand.

 

But the thing is,

Be it that you're just a crazy person' date=' or that you did what I did to make it so my creation process would be cake, you still have to be in the right state of mind to create a tulpa.[/quote']

 

He (Xeare, lol why am I typing in third person narrative) made a dichotomy that keeps growing, and although he may not have intended to do that, it seems his logic is slipping here. The distinction between his method vs. someone else's method vs. a crazy person vs. any other scenario, and he acknowledges you have to be in the right state of mind to create a tulpa. Yes, which is just getting into a suggestive state, there really isn't a "right state of mind" to create a tulpa, it's just a "suggestive state of mind," we all get into a level of concentration on daily activities, it's just a matter of how we can control it to focus wholly on a task. Because whether you use Xeare's piece-of-cake-tulpae creation process, or hypnosis, or meditation, or whatever, the moment the person starts demonstrating their desires to have a certain result, it will come in time. Those feelings during the journey that have people questioning if it's their tulpa or them (but not acknowledging that it's the unconscious making these in preparation) are all proof of them going through the real deal.

 

The thing that makes people like Nomadic engage in an inferiority complex with "how come these people are having better progress than I am?" he starts questioning his endeavors as if it was fake, as if the conditioned responses (that suddenly can make it easier for people to delude themselves) was not something he was doing as well. He misinterpreted those reflexes and responses he had as fake instead of considering, just for once, that his mind was in the process of getting to the point where he can have a vocal tulpa whose voice flows naturally and easily.

 

Here's a comparison to make things a bit easier:

 

1. ANYONE's creation process (such as Xeare's) (the planning and being mentally prepared where he gets the concepts on a deeper level of introspection). He made the commitment, he trained himself mentally to understand the tulpa experience in his perspective, and thus the process of making and other activities with tulpaforcing is a cinch to him. Let's just put that as the epitome of better and practical tulpa creating and tulpa-related activities here.

 

2. Newcomers who are not mentally prepared and have to go through their own creation process, but they're still climbing over the barriers with realizing how the invisible perception of "sanity" is a delusion in itself.

 

3. People who use other methods (after being in #2 for a bit and start scavenging for information) that seemingly have the result of a speedy tulpa (and that includes a bit more than just hours or a few days by the way) This category is subjective, whether the person uses hypnosis, meditation, etc.

 

3a. (deviation from #3) Nomadic who goes through his own journey of having those voices slipping into his mind, seeing and embracing these reflexes coming about, he's going through his unique process, HOWEVER, he started having an inferiority complex when he was comparing the other people who seemed to have faster progress than him. So while he thinks his journey was in vain, it's really not, the unconscious is going to keep at it with connecting the dots, those same reflexes and responses he felt were fake were not fake, they were tested out, experimented unconsciously. The same with the voices in his head which I'm sure he felt wasn't "real." They were real, but they were prototypes, they were works in progress. It's how his mind

unconsciously learns the process, all he needed was to acknowledge this instead of doing a comparative analysis on other people's progress. Because when he finally hears the tulpa's voice flow through naturally and easily, it was because of the workings of the unconscious connecting the dots to create that moment for him. So when he felt his "tulpaforcing career" was mostly a fake, he's undermining the workings of how his unconscious learns the process even when he feels he's getting nowhere.

 

 

Now,

 

Combine #3 with any deviation of people that may have the same questioning with their progress + #1 of eventually devoting themselves wholly to understanding themselves a bit better = new and deeper understanding of how to make those conditioned responses to have a vocal, sentient, and sapient tulpa. (Where they're not being intimidated by comparing their progress from others, they focus on THEIR OWN UNIQUE way of unconsciously learning the process). That's because #1 realizes that in order for the mind to create it's own way to conceptualize the experience, it needs time, but it can also be sped up when they know how to master being in the suggestive state (self-hypnosis or meditation or whatever technique that enables them to focus better).

 

#2 leads to #3 to eventually reach #1

 

But #3 can also start questioning their progress and think it's fake when they compared other people's progress = inferiority complex building up, and thus they feel it was all a self-delusion. This is Nomadic's position, when he heard his tulpa's voice, when it was as clear and distinct than other moments, where do you think the result came from? The workings of his unconscious! Those same feelings he thought were fake were not fake, they were just experiments, how the unconscious tests things out with unconditional love to give us what we want, and it's not going to worry much of our conscious feelings of not getting anywhere.

 

This is why while we're complaining and questioning if it's our tulpa's voice or ours, the unconscious is busy connecting the dots, so that the morning you wake up, or just that random moment in the day where you heard the voice, you start getting mind-blown. So for Nomadic to say his "tulpa career" was fake, that he deluded himself, when in fact he was just going through how our sub-c and unconscious can do wonders to where it seems like it's a deus ex machina.

 

 

 

 

 

NOW, the challenge here, is for us to close the gap of us seeing the process as a deus ex machina and understanding there are more ways in being "mentally being prepared" or in the "right state." When we can acknowledge this, that's when we can coin terms to specify certain conditions.

 

The point is, don't underestimate the unconscious, especially when it can make thought-forms pop in and out like a baby making machine. People underestimate their unconscious with the random voices that they're having a hard time wondering if it's their tulpa or not. The unconscious and sub-c are busy planning things out, and it's only getting delayed if we're not confident of our minds' potential to make things happen.

 

Here's an analogy:

 

It's like this, the unconscious throws in a random voice, response, reflex there where we eventually acknowledge it and it indirectly asks, "how does this feel?" Whatever our response is, it goes back to its expansive lab to test out and experiment to give more prototypes and goes into a back-and-forth motion with our conscious on "how does this feel?"

 

The more it asks indirectly with the random slips of voices, reflexes, responses, etc. the better it becomes at getting accurate of conceptualizing the process to where it indirectly says, "FINISHED, here you go! *vocal tulpa* It's a work in progress, but I think I did a decent job in this, let me know if anything seems weird, and I'll get back to you on that" (which is how we can assume a tulpa as sentient, but knowing they can still grow and develop (or just with Xeare's term of treating them as sentient)).

 

The analogy should be pretty easy to get here.

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-pokes around random thread-

-sees her name-

-freaks out-

 

I FEEL SPECIAL :D

 

lol XD But that's beside the point. ... wait, I don't think this post has a point ^^; I'd join this whole thing buut... I'm late, and plus as Xeare said my attention is really short and i cannot get through even one of your guys' posts XD So... I'mma stop being useless nao.

 

//rolls away/


[Forseen]

{Muse}

|Alix|

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NotAnonymous, thank you so much for the very well-written and articulate wall of text you'd previously posted. It cleared up all of my problems; every last one of them. And to think that you were able to put all of that in words... phew. At least you were able to do it, because if you weren't, I would still be in this dark hole.

 

It wouldn't be wrong to say that you've saved us. Thank you.

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Hmm I have always kept the mindset that taking time on things helps much more then rushing into them. Its due to the point when you rush into creating something it can lead to you overlooking other things. I cannot state a lot myself since im still working on my first tulpa. However I can state that I am going to be spending as much as I can on each part of the tulpa. As for the tulpa itself I have not even named it yet lets just say mine is more complicated then just forming one. However wanting to get instant gratification for something or faster is not the best way to go about it. Sure having a sentient tulpa is nice but would it not be better to take the time you have on developing it and then reaching that point in a more specified order. Think of it this way what if for example I decided to skip the cocoon stage of a caterpillar and just went right on to the butterfly part. Now lets say that it can still achieve the butterfly form without the cocoon. Well everything seems alright it got the wings and such but there is a problem though. You allowed it to form to fast without the needed time to let it adapt to its new form. The cocoon allows it too slowly change form and let its body adjust to it. When you take a tulpa and try to immediately get sentience well its much like that. The tulpa might not be as adjusting to have sentience since you did not take the time to allow it adjust by slowly reaching sentience and teaching it everything. From what I read on the forum there are certain people who like to rush into this trying to reach sentience faster and some assume they are better because of it.


Tulpa progress Name not given yet working on giving her voice.

Form human pinkish red hair with glasses normal body.

She contradicts me in certain ways. She has more emotions then I have yet I wish to be more emotional. Im estimating at least 300 more hours should be put into her. She was from my dreams.

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