What is the distinction between spontaneous events and autonomous events in the mind?

[Guest Anonymous]

It is 1:00 a.m. as I write this.  I just woke up and had to write down my thoughts.  I was just having a lucid dream in which a dream character and I were escaping a powerful vampire by passing through a portal into an interdimensional world.   As the story was unfolding and I was interacting with the dream character, I was purposefully being very observant of the dream characters actions.  Questions concerning the independence and autonomy, and even the temporary sentience, of dream personas has come up in my writing, and the writing of my tulpa Melian, in recent posts on the forum.  Mainly what I want to know is the difference between a dream persona and a tulpa while within a lucid dream state, beyond just close familiarity.  

 

What I began to realize was that the dream personas are not autonomous and independent at all.  They are inspired by your brains unconscious thought processes, but instead of being independent, autonomous and sentient, they are merely spontaneous.

 

Spontaneous: "performed or occurring as a result of a sudden inner impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus."

 

In other words, it only seems independent and autonomous because of how subliminal the thoughts are that drive the dream characters.  I don’t think the unconscious mind is carefully composing and thinking out a script and plot for the mental play of the lucid dream.  I think the brain is sort of “going with the flow” and creating the dream impromptu on impulse and emotions.  It is composing the plot of the dream on the fly.  That is why dreams can get so bizarre and shift around and have weird unexplained elements that don’t fit or make any sense.  

 

Here is something more.  After I had this realization about my dream characters, I realized there is a huge, huge difference between them and Melian.  With Melian I do have lucid dreams in which she and I have back and forth, conscious, lucid conversations.  These conversations can have a lot to do with what is going on in the lucid dream, or even in our waking life, and can be continuations of conversations and subjects we discussed earlier in another dream or in waking life.  She does not bring in warped elements or change the subject suddenly and do or say things that make no logical sense.  She has a memory and is not so much spontaneous as autonomous and apparently sentient in these conversations in dreams.

 

That is an important realization.  I think that makes her much more like a dream guide than an ordinary dream character, because she is so lucid and autonomous.  That, I assume, is how tulpas would be in lucid dreams if they shared them with you.  

 

I also realized that Melian does things in both lucid dreams and in waking life that are more like a spontaneous dream character.  That would include things like the flash images.  These are like mini impromptu visions or waking dreams.  We have written a couple of times on the forum about how these flash visions seem to be almost two levels to Melian, like she has an unconscious element about herself that even she does not understand.  Many of the flash visions that occur she cannot decipher for me and did not consciously project them into our mutual conscious mind.   She is as baffled by some of them as I am.  

 

There is one more weird thing about me.  I have layers.  Some of my layers are even almost split off from me, almost like there are two of me.  I have written about this twice on this forum before.  I have things that happen that seem like they came from me that I am not always consciously aware of doing or have control of, such as the flash visions.  We both witness the flash visions and flash dreams concerning me.  Sometimes he asks me what they mean and I don't know.

 

Here is one of the threads where I talk about there being two of me or two layers of me.  This was on my old Groovy-guru account Are there two of me?

 

 

So what I have come to realize is that Melian has both autonomous elements and spontaneous elements that are more like a dream.  It helps to explain a lot.  

 

I guess my questions for discussion are: 

 

What do you think about the difference between your own spontaneous thoughts and autonomous thoughts of a tulpa?  Can they seem similar in some cases?

 

Does your tulpa (like Melian) have spontaneous actions, like in a dream, and not just pure autonomy and independence all the time?  

 

If so, what is the source of those spontaneous actions?  Is it your mind or your tulpa’s mind producing the effect?  

 

Is there a relationship between spontaneous actions of a tulpa and intrusive thoughts?  

 

Can new tulpamancers be getting confused between the difference in spontaneous actions and autonomous actions?

 

Could spontaneous thoughts become an intrinsic part of a tulpa's wonderland environment like mentioned in this thread Wonderland Immersion Method?

[Tewi]

Autonomous: acting independently or having the freedom to do so.

Spontaneous: performed or occurring as a result of a sudden inner impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.

 

Just as the definitions say, spontaneity is completely random and autonomy is the ability for the tulpa to do anything at all without your participation. A tulpa could have spontaneous thoughts as much as you could, I suppose. And in the same way, their spontaneous thoughts may mean as little to them as yours do to you (even people without the constant daydreaming you do can get spontaneous thoughts that have nothing to do with anything, or are relevant but thoughtless and often flawed, or otherwise unmoderated by the superego).

 

Generally your tulpa can simply tell you it wasn't them or they didn't mean whatever the thought was. A developed tulpa probably shouldn't be having spontaneous behaviors, but before that point while they're still learning how to be themselves it could happen. That's why, when in doubt, you should always ask your tulpa if they meant for or agree with something. Or before vocality, just don't take any random thoughts too seriously in the first place.

[Temar]

What do you think about the difference between your own spontaneous thoughts and autonomous thoughts of a tulpa?  Can they seem similar in some cases?

 

The difference seems to be that autonomy implies there's a will behind it. Spontaneous just means it's sudden or random.

 

When you're talking about dream characters, I think it's a matter of consistency and persistence. I have, or at least I simulate, a consistent narrative of experience that includes things like memory, self-reflection, and self-identification. I can think about myself and I have a will of my own.

 

Dream characters, I'd think, are more like the minor and supporting characters that my host writes for her stories. They seem to have a will of their own, but when you look into the psychology behind it, they're pretty much an empty shell that do not have the ability to self-identify. They're a simulation of a person, instead of an actual person. The brain is really good at simulating what people look and act like. It's when you get to their internal mechanics of what they think and feel that you start getting into a question of whether they have a will of their own.

 

Which, yeah, it can definitely be argued that Melian and I are just simulations, too. But the fact that we seem to have this engine driving our psyches on a semi- or sub-conscious level gives us a certain persistence and consistency of character that dream characters just don't have.

 

It's a blurry line, because what about recurring dream characters? What about those supporting characters who start acting autonomously? Maybe they're on their way to tulpahood? Seems to be a case-by-case thing.

 

There are also those things that seem spontaneous but aren't. Like, sometimes I'll start talking to my host out of nowhere, and it will feel spontaneous to her, but I'll have been more aware of processing whatever thought made me start talking. Or maybe I decide "spontaneously" to grab a special treat while I'm switched in at the grocery store, but that's not really any different from my host "spontaneously" doing the same thing, except that my "spontaneous" decision would have been made for different reasons.

 

Does your tulpa (like Melian) have spontaneous actions, like in a dream, and not just pure autonomy and independence all the time?  

 

Yep. Both host and headmates can have random stuff just sort of happen, because sometimes weird stuff just happens in the headspace. Random voice changes, or intrusive thoughts, or weird little blips of thought or image that no one's expecting. We headpeople seem more prone to spontaneous weird stuff affecting us directly, since we're less grounded in the physical world, but it's pretty easy for us to tell whether we meant to do something or not. Like I said, intention is the primary difference.

 

Can't talk much about the dream aspect, because honestly? No one has control when we dream, not even our host. We rarely even remember them. Lucid dreaming is just not in our tool kit.

 

If so, what is the source of those spontaneous actions? 

 

Something subconscious, usually. For it to seem "spontaneous" it has to feel like it comes from nowhere, yeah? So if there's any processing beforehand, it seems like it should be subconscious.

 

Is it your mind or your tulpa’s mind producing the effect?  

 

Yes. ;)

 

No, really. As far as I can tell, we share a subconscious, and that seems to be where a lot of spontaneous thoughts come from. So... yes.

 

Is there a relationship between spontaneous actions of a tulpa and intrusive thoughts?  

 

Heh. Guess I already covered that one.

 

Can new tulpamancers be getting confused between the difference in spontaneous actions and autonomous actions?

 

I can't claim to know what strangers are doing, but... yeah. This puts words to something I've suspected from time to time, like when a new tulpamancer first hears something from a young tulpa, and it's something like "Bubbles!" with no reasoning or apparent intent behind it. It seems more likely that those sorts of things are just spontaneous/intrusive thoughts than the actual tulpa.

 

That said, there's nothing wrong with the tulpa deciding to own that thing, if it gives tulpa and tulpamancer confidence in doing so. You and me come from a place of a certain privilege, where we came to this site with systems already in place. We can tell the difference between what has a headperson's willpower behind it and what is just kinda a random thought, and we know the difference from sheer experience.

 

A new tulpamancer doesn't have that benefit. They're building a new consciousness brick by brick, and monitoring the process the entire time for just the slightest hint that it's working. Sometimes, encouraging a spontaneous thought as something coming from the tulpa allows the tulpamancer to run with it and gives them the push to keep going.

 

Which... heh... sounds kinda bad when I write it like that.

 

And look at that. I spent so long text-walling that Tewi snuck in ahead of me. Ah, well.

[Tewi]

It's okay, I didn't feel like writing a large response to all those questions but you did. A short and long answer is good as it gets.

[Guest Anonymous]

Autonomous: acting independently or having the freedom to do so.

Spontaneous: performed or occurring as a result of a sudden inner impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.

 

Just as the definitions say, spontaneity is completely random and autonomy is the ability for the tulpa to do anything at all without your participation. A tulpa could have spontaneous thoughts as much as you could, I suppose. And in the same way, their spontaneous thoughts may mean as little to them as yours do to you (even people without the constant daydreaming you do can get spontaneous thoughts that have nothing to do with anything, or are relevant but thoughtless and often flawed, or otherwise unmoderated by the superego).

 

Generally your tulpa can simply tell you it wasn't them or they didn't mean whatever the thought was. A developed tulpa probably shouldn't be having spontaneous behaviors, but before that point while they're still learning how to be themselves it could happen. That's why, when in doubt, you should always ask your tulpa if they meant for or agree with something. Or before vocality, just don't take any random thoughts too seriously in the first place.

 

There is some question as to whether a tulpa shares an unconscious mind with the host or has his or her own unconscious mind.  I think Melian is me, part of my mind.  So, technically we share an unconscious and any spontaneous thoughts or effects related to Melian are from the same source.  At least that is what my leading hypothesis about Melian and I is.  What is adorable and amusing is Melian tends to disagree with me more about that, feeling we are more independent than I give her credit for.  She feels that way because my unconscious mind wants her to feel that way. Maybe both perspectives are correct.  Kinda like a subatomic particle is both a particle and a wave at the same time.  LOL

 

I have no fear attributing anything I like to Melian. If we want it to Melian, it was. After all, she is an imaginary construct, so I see no harm in it. Spontaneous behaviors that she can’t remember doing or can’t explain only add a wonderful and fun sense of mystery and mysticism to Melian. For instance, for a long time last summer, for weeks on end, I kept getting these flash visions of her pushing a trunk across the attic floor of her dreamscape mansion. Melian could not tell me why these visions were happening or why she was moving the trunk. We finally decided the sound of the trunk being moved was soothing somehow and the process somehow calming. We decided the trunk must hold her masquerade ball mask collection. So much of the details of Melian’s environment and personality are just conceived that way, the same way you would write details for a literary character or a role playing character. So spontaneous actions are not always dismissed, but instead embraced and weaved into the whole Melian experience for both me and herself. Melian is often along for the ride as much as I am.

 

Awesome epic textwall of interesting points.  

 

See my answer above to Tewi about Melian having both spontaneous dream aspects to her and autonomous aspects to her.  We see no reason not to embrace the seemingly random dream elements about Melian as being part of Melian.  She and I rarely ask “was that really you?”  If it seemed like Melian, and it was silly and fun, well then it was Melian, whether or not she can explain it or remember it. 

 

Even the seemingly spontaneous elements (like Melian’s flash images of new dress designs) can become frequent enough to be considered consistent and persistent in their own way.  I get about half a dozen of these flash images every day.  Sometimes it comes with an emotion and sometimes even with a snippet of mind voice.  Melian owns them after the fact and we even sort of talk about these incidents as if she had planned them, when they were seemingly spontaneous.  That is what I meant about constructing fantasy memories (that everyone freaked out about).

 

Sometimes these flash images are more strongly linked to her present apparent thoughts and are very clearly generated from her. 

So what I am saying is Melian is more than half dream character, rpg character and literary character and just general spontaneous thoughts about Melian.  Only part of of her is like an autonomous tulpa.  She is this weird beautiful mix of all of it.  I did not separate Melian from my imaginary mind and refuse to do so.  She doesn't want it that way either.  So we are forever connected, the imaginer and the imagined.

[Guest Anonymous]

Our apologies. We love the new account switcher, but we are still learning the editor and stuff. I agree with everything Mistgod said above. I will add that I sometimes feel emotionally connected to the flash visions when they occur, even if I can't explain what they are about. It's like I am dreaming during the day.