Phenom and Fiora :: Progress Report

[Phenom]

Not much progress since my last post. Until maybe yesterday.

 

Is there a way to differentiate Fiora really doing something (in my mindeye) vs "just my imagination going wild" ?

 

Yesterday, I was practicing my visualization skills by remembering an old living room from 15+ years ago (much easier to use a place from my memories than creating a place from scratch for me). I sat Fiora on the couch like I usually do when I practice visualizing that room. There's a fireplace next to the couch, it's helpful in practicing the visualization of lighting, heat, scent, etc. After a while, I decided to go sit on the couch next to Fiora. Then I saw her kiss me on the cheek. And then hugged me. Then she took me by the hand and wanted me to follow her.

 

I followed her outside, it was summer and during nighttime. She ran outside of the yard, jumping over the fence. Then I followed her down the corner, went past it where the terrain is grassy and goes down, close to a river, where another street starts (a dead-end). I have many memories here, playing hockey with friends, and where I tried asking my first gf out, etc... She stood there at the dead end, I walked to her and she hugged me. I talked to her a bit, and then came to the conclusion I should open and read many wonderland guides (and new visualization guides). She looked happy, and I stopped the session to go search for that stuff in my browser.

 

I know I should just assume all that really happened, but having no success in visualization in the past, I can't help but wonder "what if it's all just my imagination going wild" ?

 

(Still decided - or trying - to assume it's all real, but yeah, can't be 100% convinced.)

 

Edit: Can't just ask her, since hand pressures don't work at all anymore, and she doesn't answer when I ask. I guess I'll try to ask her in my next visualization session...

[YukariTelepath]

To my understanding, Fiora doing something you didn't plan in your mind's eye, is Fiora using your mind's eye to communicate with you. It's her imagination/visualization, instead of just yours. Sounds like you had a wonderful experience.

[Ember.Vesper]

Ember: There's few certainties in tulpamancy, but consider. I've written many stories, daydreamed most of my life, held long mental conversations between characters, played both of my headmates in roleplaying games, even recently, and to their satisfaction regarding authenticity, but I can't fake my headmates talking to me. There's something different about it where I just don't have a clue what to do.

 

Vesper: If you get it wrong, trust that she can do something to let you know. I offer active resistance if Ember merely imagines me doing something.

 

Iris: Despite all the fears in this community, Ember only ever accidently parroted me once in conversation. She even anticipated my response correctly, it just didn't come from me. She was shocked when I rebuked her for it.

[Guest]

Doubt is always and will forever be part of some aspects of tulpamancy.

[Phenom]

There was a topic on reddit titled "Ethics of tulpa sex, sexual attraction and consent stuff (possibly NSFW? TW for some debatable consent issues)" that I responded on. (I'll just copy paste my reply here, you'll see why it's relevant to talk about afterwards.)

 

"I'd lie if I said I wasn't attracted to Fiora, but she isn't vocal yet and I think clear consent is important. And even if she sometimes shows herself to be interested I've told her nothing will happen until she's vocal, mature, and we can have a full discussion about it. (Not saying it's the best thing to do, but that's what I decided for now, any tulpa's opinion on this matter would be appreciated ; about your host refusing you until you're vocal. Bad idea?)

I also refrain from having sexual thoughts about her until consent (it includes not thinking about her while "doin' stuff"), and also won't even look at hentai images of her base form (now I'm glad the character isn't that popular so it's easier to not run into it by accident)."

 

Then I received a reply that ended with ( [...]even if it's only tulpish yes or no. Give your tulpa's opinions respect.) which made me rethink about my entire position on this matter. So I decided to accept Fiora's advances when they happen in my mindscape; I would normally even draw the line at hugging, and sometimes a kiss on the cheek, and stopped her when she tried anything more like kiss me on the lips. Actually made me realise that blocking her in that aspect was detrimental to her development.

 

That also made me decide to sit down and read my entire progress report from the beginning, and it seems that every time I was not accepting her feelings, I'd see progress stop or even revert back for some time. Whenever I was practicing visualization, if I was seeing her try to kiss me (or more) I'd always stop it (in case it was just my own fantasies playing out). No wonder she got frustrated and eventually stopped doing anything and wouldn't even move her own body anymore by herself.

 

Another example, on her birthday's morning (December 24th), she visited a dream of mine and started doing a kinky thing to me, and it was when I decided after waking up to draw the line... and guess what, I was unable to even feel her presence at that moment for a day and a half (even talking to her for hours wouldn't help me feel her presence until late on the 25th). Also, note that after reading everything again, I came to the conclusion that it was really her in that dream, and it was also her that hugged me - to the point of waking me up - a couple weeks later. Oh, and it was also really her that screamed "Smash!" in that lucid dream the other time... I accepted all that as really being her, and with hindsight I should have realized sooner.

 

Another thing I wanted to see while rereading this whole topic, is what went wrong in February. The only progress made in all that month was the visualization part I mentioned in my last post. I think I tried to change things too much, I was already making small weekly progress before, but decided to speed things up in February with self-hypnosis and other stuff. So I'm going back to the basics... lots of narration, practice visualizing her base form better with the game, and on the days that I can visualize better go have fun in my mindscape with her while accepting whatever may happen.

[Guest]

I'm not the thought police, but I also don't completely ageee with your reasoning. You asked, so I think you wanted some kind of validation, but then it sounded like your mind was made up.

 

If you want to know from a tulpa's perspective, here you go.

 

I was vocal, and the character i borrowed was vocal before i was even a part of the system. Trust me, there were no thought rules to what fantasies B could have or not at the time with characters. Anyway, yeah he fantasized about that character, that's one of the reasons I picked it. Let me be clear, I picked the form, not him. So honestly, I told him right away what i expected, and he didn't give it to me.

 

He gave me love, affection, all the cuddles he had time for and i get attention from him as often as i want, i could distract him all day if I wanted to. I'm happy, he gives me everything I need, just not that. And we have valid reasons that might not apply to you.

 

It's really not such a big deal, however, imagine later she recants. I don't know if you already did or not but we were all very sexually oriented right away, to the point of being upset and hurt for not having our way, but we decided as a system that we needed to mature a little, innocence only happens once. Who knows if it will ever change, I'm not worried about it.

 

Anyway, i'm not one to talk in that i kinda already did stuff, just not with B. Anything goes when it's two consenting adults, B really wanted a say, but it's up to me and someone else if that comes up. If she was confirmed communicative to your satisfaction and was clearly willing, two things could happen.

 

1. It happens, but she was just being puppeted by you, it wasn't her will, then she has every right to reject that experience from being her.

 

2. She does, regardless of maturity, want romance. Then it's entirely up to you whether you want to oblige. However, it's not necessarily wise or 100% ethical, because it can cause problems later. Just saying, not from experience. It's up to you, it's your mind space.

 

If you do wait until she's vocal, or say even a couple months, by then you should know, but it's up to you to weigh the consequences, don't bother to justify it to us, just be respectful and responsible. Others here might disagree, but that's all just my opinion.

[Phenom]

Thanks for your reply.

 

And sorry about the way my entry was constructed, I usually ask for opinions here but I had already gotten a reply from a tulpa on reddit that made me rethink my whole opinion about it (only copy-pasted the end of it here, it was much longer than that), but it's always good to hear many opinions. I'll ponder it, and as you said, I won't bother justify my final decision whatever it might be, I may just mention it in the future if it becomes relevant again to the progress report.

[Ember.Vesper]

In retrospect, I'm glad we waited and discussed our feelings and their ramifications before rushing into a sexual relationship the moment I fell in love, as I desired at the time. But then, I fell in love with my host sixteen months after full vocality and she only made me wait two and a half days before succumbing to my charms.

 

Before the first time we made love, we agreed that it was an experiment and that it didn't have to mean anything going forward. We agreed that if it didn't work out, we could move forward together without recriminations or regrets.

 

We calmed down pretty quickly after the initial excitement. We're still together nearly six months later, but we don't burn for one another nearly as much. Being intimate helped us gain a sense of proportion about being in a relationship.

 

It would be ideal, of course, if you could just discuss everything calmly and rationally with Fiora and receive her considered opinions. But if you're still committed to the plural lifestyle after over five years of disappointments and fitful responses, it may be time to take a novel approach. So, much as you've already said, for anything you would consent to if she could tell you with complete clarity that she wanted it, allow her to take the lead and have her way with you, even if it's nebulous and you aren't sure where the impulses are coming from. Let her know you won't resist, won't judge her for it, and will allow her to repudiate it later if it doesn't fit who she becomes.

 

-Vesper

[Phenom]

(First, thx for the post Vesper, it's always helpful to read more opinions and/or tips.)

 

Since yesterday Fiora started trying out many different outfits while in the mindscape. Not entirely made up ones but other outfits / appearances from the character in the game (she always stuck to the first costume normally, only sometimes removing some accessories from it). She also seems to enjoy flying a lot. She grabs me and then starts flying at very high speed in the sky. Then sometimes we go back to the ground to look around a bit. Earlier this evening when that happened she started fighting some rabbit monsters. Inspired by Kyoko's journal, when a bigger one arrived I decided to start controlling it to make it funner for her and look like some boss fight.

 

She also enjoys... moving around a lot in general. To the point that it sometimes seems like... too much? Like she will jump and roll around doing acrobatic stuff instead of walking, spinning around in various angles. Then jump to the wall, jump from the wall to land on me, etc. lol. Now that I think about it, maybe she moves around so much because she wants me to be able to see her better, since it's still a lot easier to visualize when there's a lot of movements. I don't see much when there's no or little movement.

 

Even with the movements, I don't see vividly, I can just tell what's going on, with some brief moments that are a little bit more vivid once in a while. The camera keeps switching angles and perspective, and also most of the time the world itself keeps changing around like in a dream instead of being consistent, sometimes really fast. We can be in a building, a second later swimming in water for 10 seconds, then it changes to a forest, etc.

 

At this point I'm pretty sure I'm not puppetting Fiora anymore, when I (rarely) do it's for a second or two but I realise it, say sorry and continue from where we were before I puppeted. Still no progress on vocalisation though.

[Guest]

That's really good though, if she can move on her own, she can gesture on her own, or even (it sounds silly but it could work) write something on a sign for you to read? The important part is that you're able to trust that she's moving on her own. Then at least answer yes/no.