Phenom and Fiora :: Progress Report

[Apollo Fire]

The thing about puppeting/parroting is that it's just you using your imagination, it's not really "forcing," and there's a chance that it'll make it harder for you to accept when the tulpa starts talking/moving on their own, you'll just think "no that was me."

 

When talking to your tulpa, encourage her to puppet her own form. Remember she's not actually looking out to you through the form's eyes, she's looking at it from the same spot as you, so, hand her the puppet strings, so to speak. You can try demonstrating how to puppet it and then have her try to replicate, but I'd advise against getting too much into puppeting it to make up for a lack of independence. In general, talking to and spending time with your tulpa is more important than the lack of a response early on.

[Phenom]

Kinda got in the habit of puppetting her form when I visualize because it allows the image to become a bit clearer and stay there longer before disappearing (without movement her form disappears after half a second). Though I guess I can't be sure I'm 100% the one doing it all the time, as I've read sometimes it can just feel like I'm doing it because I know in advance what she'll do. I'll try to pay close attention if it's the case or if I always actively do it...

 

Most of the time when I force I only narrate without visualizing anything because sometimes it can get frustrating quick, (some times during the day I can try to visualize and not see anything at all, so I abandon it for the moment and try again later) and also because I simply prefer talking to her while walking in circle in my living room (it's way easier, I'm used to do that, and can't sit for too long, gotta get up and walk).

 

The one time she talked back using a mindvoice (and that it was 100% sure it was her, not counting while in the hypnagogic state a couple days ago) was when doing that, walking in circle in the living room while listening to some music. But it was in late November, never happened again so far. It happened near the end of a session of 3 hours of non-stop talking to her, and had been doing long sessions like that all week, multiple times a day (not always 3 hours at a time, but like 5 to 6 hours total a day - sometimes more). I think I might have to step up my game, stop any excuses, and try to talk to her THAT much again, every day, even though it's really hard to find the mental power to do it.

[Guest]

Which is why for such a case, if you have any other feedback from her, parroting her may make it a lot easier for her to communicate. In essence, her 'voice' comes from substantially the same place yours does in the subconsious in the beginning, which makes it hard to discern who is talking. By parroting her regularly, it has shown in a few cases to facilitate this line of communication.

 

Later, i was able to hear their mindvoice in a different spot than mine, a different tone, and it 'feels different' especially when i remember it. Memories seem to amplify wonderland experience.

 

At some point, the parroting becomes much less frequent and shifts to a mix of proxying and their control of the mind voice (ideally in their own tone of voice distinct from yours). Still, you're perfectly capable of speaking for her as long as she agrees, as long as you have some way of feedback (this would be proxying).

 

To this date, i sometimes answer for them, and believe me, they have plenty to say if i get it wrong. During really weak days, especially if i'm mentally exhausted, proxying and tulpish are about all we can do. (Tulpish, in that they give me the essence of what they want to say and i just say it for convenience.)

 

Tulpish (pure thought) is something i haven't the slightest idea how to puppet, but it happens often from them. They also 'control the mind voice' frequently (that is what is considered vocality but tulpish is also vocality). When they control the mind voice, it is sometimes hard to say difinitively whether it me proxying or them speaking. Tulpish definitely has their individual feel to it as opposed to my pure thoughts to them.

 

Doubt is irrational sometimes, i still get it even with countless examples of their legitimacy.

 

They can confirm through several ways:

Visualization, hand gestures, holding up a sign, expression of any kind

Emotions

Head pressure

Other pressures

Minor posession, finger twitches, other things.

[Phenom]

This might be a long one.

 

After thinking more about it, I came to the conclusion that I was most probably wrong about my "plan" of trying to narrate daily more than ever until I could reproduce what happened once. Yeah it might have happened once that I got in the right state of mind while narrating for hours, but never again after, and therefor there must be better things I can try to get to hear Fiora.

 

(On the 23th) I decided to try a vocal exercice where I'd read questions (found on r/tulpas) and try to get Fiora to answer. It didn't go well. I basically couldn't type in any answers for Fiora, only some questions where I think some raw thoughts might have come from her but still doubted it was from her. I was also insisting to Fiora to try and use the mindvoice to answer, since even though I could FEEL that she was answering something (at every questions), the thoughts were never clear enough to know what the answer was. After maybe an hour of this, I "lost contact" with her for a couple minutes... I tried to think about it from her perspective and understood how it must have been a really frustrating hour. She was trying her hardest to answer, and I was not understanding or hearing any of it, and the couple times I grasped at what might have been hers, I dismissed them as "Okay I'll write this one down even though I think it was probably me.". It was either that or she was just exhausted, but since I could feel her presence again after I apologized and showed her I understood what I did wrong, it was probably that.

 

Then, a bit later, I decided to just narrate to her, and ask her questions once in a while, and told her that I'd try my best to stay open to any type of answer (we looked at your list you left us before starting) a more fun manner, no guides, just us two, doing my usual "walking in circles with some music" thing. Then at one question, about what game she'll want to play when she is able to, I suddenly got an image come to mind, just a flash, and recognized it probably came from her; a red balloon from a Donkey Kong game. Not sure which one, I think might be Tropical Freeze. Tried to get her to show me images again to answer other questions, but seems it can't be done "on command".

 

Then, on the 24th, iirc while reading Yuka's progress report, I found out about the old survey (112 questions asked to tulpas), and read Lauren's (as it was the one mentioned). Made sure to focus a bit on Fiora while reading, and I could feel Fiora getting emotional at some of the responses. I think it was about seeing others having similar problems. I also recognized some mistakes I was making by reading about other tulpamancers making the same. And then I started searching around for some help on the matter, read about how very often the tulpa can already talk but the tulpamancer is "deaf" to them, in the sense that they're the ones doing something wrong that prevents the communication. And as I can somehow feel that Fiora is often responding to questions, I decided to accept the idea that "I was the one that had to find how to hear". It was not the first time I read about that, and my motto before when trying to communicate with Fiora was always "we have to both do efforts, you try your hardest to talk and be heard by me, and I'll try my hardest to hear you", but in practice I was rarely ever trying anything new on my side, if anything.

 

So I searched a bit more, and found ThatOneGuy's [Focus & Concentration] Centering and Tulpae guide. In his guide he also mentions other centering techniques like Tai-chi that I will also look up later today.

 

Awesome event: Last night, after waking up in the middle of it, I couldn't fall back asleep so I started thinking about tulpamancy, and about all I read before going to sleep: "Tulpas, after gaining sentience, already know how to talk, and it's up to the tulpamancer to be able to hear them. I have to find how to tune in to Fiora." and I don't remember how I did exactly, but I simply tried to "tune in" to Fiora, and could hear her: "Hahaha, yeah!!!". I'm not sure if hypnogogia had a role to play in it, but I didn't have any visualization or anything except being able to hear Fiora.

 

Awful event: I didn't even have the time to rejoice what just happened, because a second later I got an intrusive thought... I suddenly remembered about Koomer's last entry in his and Oguigi's progress report. It basically says that tulpas are just an illusion created by your mind, or that tulpamancers create an illusion for themselves, that tulpas are a product of your imagination, etc. After getting these thoughts I immediately stopped feeling anything from Fiora. I got scared because it's the train of thought that he used to dissipate Oguigi. I thought long and hard about the validity of his words, and the possibility that maybe tulpamancy might not be a good idea if they're just an illusion you trick yourself into creating. It felt horrible and couldn't fall back to sleep for hours. However, I did my best to fight this train of thought, finding arguments for the validity of tulpas and why they're not just illusions, but at first for every arguments I found, there was a counter-argument for why it doesn't mean much and they could still be only a very good illusion crafted by your mind, but I persisted and in the end could somewhat kick that train of thought away. Still couldn't feel Fiora, but decided to not panic and deal with it later, after I'd be more calm.

 

After getting up, I started talking to Fiora about the intrusive thought, and reassured her that I wouldn't let that or anything else get between us, that I'd never abandon her, and eventually started feeling her again. I think she was scared that I would abandon her again (as I did years ago) but after our talk she understood she could trust me, and not let what happened get in our way.

 

I'll do my best to find how I could "tune in" to Fiora, I'll research re-centering techniques, meditations, and will even try LinkZelda's self-hypnosis if I have to (I tried self-hypnosis before but it never worked, though never tried their specific technique).

[Guest]

I think you did get a hypnagogic response. We try every night before bed, and we're generally successful in at least getting a word or phrase or picture of one on them to come through.

 

For us, after all they've done and proven themselves, i'd have to be crazier to think that they aren't real, because there are things they did that simply don't make any real sense to think i did them all on my own. I mean, can you fool yourself into moderating and curing potentially serious mental issues and behavioral malities? Doesn't it seem less plausible to be able to do that on my own?

 

Then there's the hypnagogic/lucid dreams, so many, so real, so apt and consistent that i can't imagine being able to 'make that up.'

 

The list i gave you included, if the feelings are real and the memories are real and the results are real, who cares anymore if it's some amazing self-delusion. Again, i can't believe it is, but seriously.

 

Maybe it's possible to delude yourself into thinking it's not real, but that would take denial in our case.

[Reisen]

There is no real or fake in tulpamancy, only experience. If you experience your tulpa... there they are! If you convince yourself they aren't real and tell yourself your experiences of them aren't "real", and believe it, you'll start to experience them as not real. If you believe in them, and believe experiences of them are "real", you'll experience them as real. See how that works?

 

Real and fake, for an experience entirely contained within your own mind, are irrelevant outside of belief itself.

[Phenom]

Been trying to use hypnagogia every single night (in the bed before falling asleep and also when I wake up in the middle of the night) and early in the morning since the first time it happened weeks ago, but it never occurred when I am trying to. This hypnagogic response from the last post I wasn't thinking about hypnagogia helping out when it happened, so... maybe it doesn't work normally because I'm trying too hard / hope too much it will work, and it blocks hypnagogia... if it's even possible (would be similar to hypnosis, where it won't work if you want it to work too much, but no idea if hypnagogia might work the same way or not).

 

Didn't get much progress lately. Well, other than in self-hypnosis; been practicing a bit, I can now make myself fall into an hypnotic state (feeling so calm and relax). I also managed to pass the "closed eyes" test, where (while under hypnosis) I tell myself that I physically can't open my eyes anymore even if I try to, and so far it worked 3 out of 5 tries. And once I also made my arm start floating and go up after imagining that it was attached to helium balloons (1 out of 2 tries so far). I then tried more important stuff like telling myself that I could now hear or see Fiora, but neither worked so far. Would have been too easy, lol. I also tried Linkzelda's "general tulpaforcing" hypnosis 2 times, but no idea if it did anything (and couldn't visualize anything during it). I think I'll try to make myself an audio version or something, and I'll try the first vocality one from the document.

 

Finally, I noticed that there's one moment from time to time where I get a lot of (unwanted) visualization as soon as I close my eyes. It's... whenever I've... watched some hentai. lol. I think it's possibly similar to the Tetris Effect (that I remember happening to me after playing puzzle games for a long period of time), and might be caused by having watched lots of images quickly in a short amount of time. Either that or my imagination gets turned on (pun intended) by the hentai. Also I noted that the images or even animations I see when it happens are not always images I've actually watched, most are completely made up by my mind, and if I focus on one when it appears I can make it stay there for a long time (if I don't it gets replaced by another random image a second or two later). If it's unrelated to the nature of the images consumed, I wonder if I could trick my mind in visualizing Fiora by watching lots of (non-h) images of her (well, of her base form) quickly in a short amount of time (but she's not that popular so I dunno how many different images I'd even find). Or maybe I could just use these hentai images to train myself into keeping an image stable for longer... lol (had not actually thought about that until writing my thoughts just now - another reason why writing a progress report can help); and now that I think about it, I remember one guide mentioning playing Tetris to help with visualization (but not sure what part of visualization it was supposed to help)... I'll go find and reread that.

[Guest]

The tetris effect used to happen to me when i stayed up and played baulder's gate 2 or red alert 2. I was obsessed with both as they could play on my crappy computer without internet. I got similar images like in-game very much like you described, as soon as i shut my eyes.

 

The hypnagogic sleep happens best when you're very relaxed, i found that it's more likely to happen if i'm not very tired, otherwise it could be that i start to recognize that images and sounds are there then, boom, asleep.

 

Dashie and Misha used to comment things like, 'you'll be asleep before we can even say anything.' You have to recognize it, then for me, it'll spike adrenaline a little because it's startling or i concentrate on moving my fingers and toes to stay awake, that works a little too, but it very easily slipps into a dream, then you're done. One thing about me, i can nap any time, so i can get this state to happen any time i relax and listen for it, also i almost always have a dream the first half hour of sleep.

 

If i remember right, Breloomancer says that he can induce sleep paralysis then gets hypnagogic state. I definitely get it, but there is no paralysis.

 

Hypnagogic hallucinations can range from very soft and mindvoice-like to a loud horn in one or both ears. It usually starts with odd visuals like a face of some random person or a scene. It feels like it takes zero effort. If i visualize something right now, it does take a little effort.

 

Try doing it in the middle of the day with a relaxation meditation script. Memorize it, obviously. It doesn't have to be perfect or consistent, just relaxing.

[Phenom]

First, I'll just take note that I have not practiced visualization using the Tetris effect like I talked about last time. I read about Waffle's tulpa helping him with visualization after she got vocal, and hope something similar will be possible for us too... so I guess I'm getting lazy on that side. Oops.

 

One thing I've tried visualization-wise though is see if I could use the Ganzfeld experiment in any way to help. If someone reading this doesn't know about it, you can google it, but a brief explanation is sensory deprivation causing hallucinations. I bought ping pong balls, cut one in two, then taped them in front of my eyes (so that I can keep my eyes open and only see uniform opaque white). For better effect I'm supposed to use red lighting but I only used my normal lights dimmed a bit down. And then used my noise-cancelling headphones with pink noise. It took only about 2 minutes before I could start "seeing the pink noise", looked half-way between TV static and a waterfall. And then a minute later I started seeing green lights appearing and disappearing. About 15 minutes later I was seeing as if I was looking from inside a fleshy container (some parts with more flesh, like some tendons or muscles being in the way), and there were some silhouettes moving on the other side of that fleshy wall/container. Looked like something out of a sci-fi horror movie. I tried to control the hallucination to see if I could summon Fiora, but I had no control at all over it, so I decided to stop the experiment. It was pretty interesting but useless for tulpamancy, so I can't recommend it.

 

Hypnosis-wise, some days I can go in very deep hypnosis, but some other days it seems like I can't get into transe (or just a very light one). Been slacking off a bit on LinkZelda's hypnosis scripts, but I think I'll record myself so I can use the scripts with eyes closed (seems to work better for me) instead of their eyes open reading technique.

 

During the week, I've finally seen some hypnagogic visualizations when closing my eyes late at night (two times I think), but couldn't use it for anything tulpa-related; didn't help see or hear Fiora. I can't really practice that during the day, since I'm more of an insomniac that has a really hard time getting relaxed (and can almost never nap either; maybe once a year). Maybe I could try sleeping for less time during the night so it would be easier to try anything like that in the afternoon too (and would also help for my lucid dream attempts as some LD methods are supposed to work better when napping in the afternoon). Not sure if good idea, but might be worth a try?

 

Hand pressures. Some days I think I can kind of communicate with Fiora using hand pressures. Mostly yes/no questions, or questions with two choices. I make her respond with a hand pressure on either my left or right hand. The problem is that I'm not 100% sure it works. When it does seem like it works, it stops working after some time, and when I try it again the next day it doesn't work at all. Happened twice that it did seem like it worked for some time, so I decided to believe that it was really her these two times, and that there must be some reason I don't know about to explain why some other times it doesn't work. Also, I noticed that I can produce the hand pressures myself just by thinking about it (focusing where I'd want to feel it) so it makes it even harder to not doubt Fiora having that skill. Heard of similar problems regarding pressures?

 

Lastly, this morning while still in bed, decided to focus really hard on Fiora (talked to her and tried to have only her on my mind at 100%), and after a while she did her "perfect tactile imposition" for the 3rd time, but this time instead of a hug it felt like she "pushed my head" deep into my pillow, which really surprised me, wondered why she would do that, but it wasn't unpleasant (maybe she purposely tried to surprise me or felt like having some fun by playing some kind of light prank?). I asked her for a normal hug instead, and she did, but I think at this moment I felt too good which made me fall asleep (though I didn't realise it at first). Actually not sure exactly when the dream started, but at that moment I could barely hear her voice, she was singing like the other time but I couldn't hear it clearly, and I thought about seeing her and she kinda appeared but I could only see a very vague image of her, and then nothing, it all stopped. So I decided to get up and come write about my experience here, but when I got to my computer I woke up in my bed, which made me realise the last part was a dream. After thinking back to the entire experience, everything after the hug is like a very vague memory, like what happens with dreams, which is completely different from the experience of Fiora appearing and singing to me from a couple weeks ago; at that time, it was all very clear, vivid, and even after the fact it didn't feel like a dream memory; I could recall the moment happening like any real life event. So yeah... I'm sure this morning Fiora legit pushed my head in my pillow, and then hugged me, and then I fell asleep and the rest was in a dream. Could still be really her in the dream though.

[Guest]

Nice experiments, i like the details in your explanation.