Apollo Fire

Staying Active in Wonderland

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How can they have experiences unattended?

 

First of all, this gets into trust and understanding your tulpa, and believing what they say. You may just as easily discount, discredit and discard their experiences as fronter. In essence you can filter their experiences. When things occur outside of your recorded and registered memory, you don't have access to it. You might say, oh, it didn't happen. Soon enough, nothing ever happens. But in reality, this does happen and you can't discredit it so easily. For instance, I know it's a thing to kind of zone out while driving, your mind wanders and you arrive at the wrong destination with no memory of it occurring. That was autopilot body OS taking care of the driving for you and it went physically to the most likely location it remembered you would want to go. I've done this before tulpamancy, others have told me outside of tulpamancy that they've done it. Some systems say it happened to them.

 

Granted that micro amnesia does happen with you, then it is certainly possible there are actual memories that weren't recorded by you. But those memories still exist, they're sometimes accessible by hypnosis, you just can't get to them from your perspective. In DID systems, some alters don't share memories. They have them, they can explain them, but they're not there. Things happened in real life and you have no memory of it.

 

Next, given mature tulpas are independent people with independent memories and independent will, and that they can keep memories that only they're keyed to recall, and you, them, or anyone can 'imagine'; well, they live in an imaginary construct, separate from the physical construct. You can enter 'their' world, it's simply wonderland. So, if you can force them, and later co-front or keep them active, and they can really do anything they want, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay attention to them, you can dissociate from them like you do anything else, the physical world or the imaginary world. As far as experience goes, physically generated memories are the same as imagined. It's a proven, observed and recorded fact that memories are molded and changed by imagination.

 

So, given they're independent, they're capable of imagination (they could force you when switched), they can create and move and enjoy wonderland just like you, and you aren't required (being independent to some degree) then they don't need you to imagine. Since for them, in wonderland, imagining is living and doing. So they can then live and do things in wonderland without you. Seems logical, punch holes in it please.

 

It's pretty clear to me, but many people don't trust that their tulpas are telling the truth and so their experiences are thrown out instead of transferred manually to your permanent memories (my talking and listening to them). It would be a fascinating experiment to see if their independent memories could be unlocked directly through hypnosis, but hey, it's not like they don't remember, they do remember! You just don't choose to believe them. A lot of really mature systems don't believe it either. I do, others do, and I think their system is healthier and more productive as a benefit. (my opinion, I have one too)

 

Again, I'm not delving into brain chemistry or physiology to describe this because I've done that and everything I come up with get's poo poo'd. No expert here. I'm not claiming this is parallel processing either, don't go there. I'm claiming that I 'keep them active' and they are free to be active without me having to oversee their actions. I can dissociate from them just as easily as I can disassociate from driving, leading to to the wrong destination, and similarly leaving them free to do whatever Dashie, Misha or Ashley say they did, and I believe them. That doesn't mean that they necessarily have to do anything though. Misha, for instance, is a sentinel watcher of me, she won't leave me unless I ask her to.

 

These statements are based on my experience and those other systems I've talked to. We have evidence to suggest this is possible, true and accurate. and not meta

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Well, Lumi. I can personally attest that Lucid Dreaming and Astral Traveling feels different. That doesn't mean the two are actually different, it just means I am reporting it feels significantly different. But, you know, nightmares feel different than pleasant dreams. Meditation feels different than non meditation. The state of consciousness you arrive it when you narrowly avoided someone running a red light feels different than driving along on automatic singing to the beach boys... not that I do that. Ah-em.

 

Apollo, 'delusion' is really a dangerous word for this community to be bantering about frivously. It's judgemental in harsh way... I am not opposed to it, and I am definitely not telling you this to censor you. Every definition I browsed used mental health issues as the primary examples of this word. Paranoia as a delusion. delusions of grandeur, reference... Would religion be a delusion? From the hard scientific point of view, all religious beliefs are delusions. There is a tight rope here and I suck at walking ropes. Am I deluded because I believe wonderland exists, and continues to exist without any effort from me, and there's continuity there without me? Do I experience that because i believe it's possible? Do you not experience that because you believe it's not possible? Am I deluded because I believe in tulpas? Am I deluded because I believe in you? I do believe you can't do this thing. Why would I doubt you. Is it a delusion for me to believe you can't do a thing? I can't do Hawking level physics. Is that a delusion? Can I really do hard math but just believe I can't? My brain is tracking everything the same way Hawking's did.

 

the brain fabricating something instantaneously isn't unheard of, but if it is actually 'instantaneous,' with no way to subjectively prove that there wasn't continuous movement, then this whole point is really a mute point...???

 

Did you ever wake from a dream that was really cool, and the next time you slept, even up to full day away from the dream, you re-entered the dream from exactly where you left off? This is an example that probably illustrates your point. Brain apparently doesn't hold something going on the background. I have had these dreams. I have also had some where I returned to the dream at a later time... Did my brain just create it right then and there? I think it can. I have been in dreams, brand new dreams, where I was interacting with people i have never met, and in the dream I never questioned that we behaved as if we had history. (This could be an explanation for Loxy's friends in the wonderland.) Did we have history? If I questioned something, the answer was there immediately explaining things reasonably enough that I cease to ask questions. Almost everyone practicing lucid dreaming discovers this, and why finding the right triggers for lucidity is so difficult.

 

But I have also experienced times when i needed to know something, but didn't have time to sit and reflect, and so i asked the question, forgot about it, and at some point later I have 'suddenly' had the answer pop into my head. I have done that enough that I know for a fact that my brain is doing work even when i am not attending. I have lots of examples of that, from driving on autopilot, to doing mundane things around the house and yard. It is actually a relief knowing that I don't have to be in control everything all the time. I can let go and and trust that things will work out. 'Tip-of-the-tongue' experiences to me seem to be the best evidence your brain is doing things even when you don't think it's doing something. I've not had access to word i know at a time I absolutely need it and the wanting brought the entire conversation to a stop, only for that very word to come out of my mouth days later, in a the most ridiculous timing and with no related context... Why? Because we have brains that can actually multitask.. People can't, brains can. Your brain is hearing things and seeing things and touching things and smelling things all at the same time and it's coordinating all of these things and putting it all together in a nice little package in your little bubble, Cartesian theater world...

 

Now, add a tulpa to your theater. I believe Loxy is autonomous and sentient. She can respond to me or other stimulus in real time without me having to stop and question her directly. I can have a conversation with her in real time. Delusion? I think not. I am not shifting back and forth between us, doing her, doing me, doing her... In fact, I can be completely focused on a thing, not an ounce of attention focused on her, and out of the blue- bam! I have this stray observation which contextually fits what I am thinking and or doing, or I get tapped on the shoulder, solid enough I look about and feel startled and hear, 'sorry, just me...' How is that not the brain doing two things at once? If you assume that the brain is the be all and end all of human existence, (I don't by the way,) then just having interaction in real time with one or more personalities is by definition brain multitasking!

 

If you accept that, and I assume all successful tulpamancer accept that- then it's not too far of a leap that if I am not attending her, and she continues to hold continuity of her own stream of thoughts without me having to narrate her thoughts and scaffold her every experience-then that means she is free to self narrate and self scaffold her own experiences without me having to be consciously dictating her entire existence. If she wants to go deep conscious, she is more free to do that than I. It takes effort for me to do deep stuff. It takes less effort for me to go to a wonderland than to go deep. If she chooses to go to wonderland, and spend time with our 'friends,' the friends she introduced me to, (we're still not clear if she created tulpas, or they were just there... I am really not pressing for that info...) I don't feel robbed of brain power, distracted.

 

Conversely, I have been driving and so focused on the conversation with her, and with Jung (one of my invisible counselors) that I have missed exits... So, in that sense, i suck at multitasking. So even though the conscious 'I' may not be able to do multiple tasks at once, the brain sure as hell can, because the unconscious can do things while i do things. I have been tracking along not paying attention and the unconscious literally stopped my body from forward progress. If you never had that happened, it's bizarre! Walking, then stopped... a moment later, my running stream of thought caught up to the fact I wasn't moving and thinking 'what the hell?' and a car blew threw the intersection, where had I kept walking, i would like be dead... Who know. All I know is 'I' didn't stop. And I am not the only person to experience that. That's a well documented thing... Many people experience driving from point a to point b without remembering the journey, they were on autopilot, hypnotized, literally multitasking. Sometimes people do that and find themselves suddenly focused, avoiding an obstacle, and they stay focused the rest of their journey, wondering how they braked 'just in time...' Magic? Nah. Our unconscious has us more often than not.

 

If it's documented, documented that it has occurs does occur, more than one person reporting it, does that mean science recognizes the thing exists? (That would be excellent proof of spirit, if you consider most people believe in some form of a higher power? (Maybe not. I know some flat earthers. Now, that's delusion- but I see how they arrived at their beliefs.) So, does it matter how we explain it? Guardian angels or subconscious, multiprocessing... The sun goes down, or the earth turns. We're describing the same thing.

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Some of my other systemmates (Cat and I call them the Grays) decided they wanted to contribute their thoughts. The Grays who were interested in contributing are talking about the subject in general rather than anything directed at anyone. I wrote my response after theirs.

 

[Dark Gray] The wonderland feels real on an emotional level. Seeing through my own eyes and feeling around with a "real" body doesn't really make tons of sense to me, and honestly I don't really care. Pain can be emotional based or you can fell a different pain in "real life". Have you ever felt ripped up inside? That's a real feeling, and that pain is real.

 

Right now, the wonderland is my reality, even if it's not something Ranger and Gray would call "real". How would a young Tulpa tell the difference? To me this seems like a Host conflating the idea of what they think "real" is with what a Tulpa would think "real" is, and the Tulpa buying it because they don't know any better.

 

[Evergreen] Living by ourselves in the wonderland doesn't make sense to me. Gray and Ranger are always there, and I don't recall ever being alone. I only feel lonely when I think about how much I'm missing out or if the thought of being lonely comes up from somewhere else- perhaps Gray's memories or him worrying about me.

 

[Blue] I don't know why we're not active in the wonderland when Gray and Ranger are away. Our wonderland is a bit of a mess right now, maybe there's some kind of set-up needed? Maybe we're just missing stuff we don't have or something?

 

[Red Gray] This doesn't make sense to me. If it's both awake, it's co-fronting. If host is awake and Tulpa is asleep, the Tulpa is asleep not partying. I can imagine I'm in my castle right now and that's great, but I can feel Ranger and Gray breathing down my neck. Why is there some magical special rule when you're asleep?

 

[Bune] Memories are very powerful. When you re-live a memory, you are being placed in another world. However, this can be easily confused for being in the wonderland. When a memory is about living in the wonderland, the two can be indistinguishable. Hence, confabulation becomes possible.

 

Sometimes the memories are enough to make one content. In some ways, it's a little like forcing time, but I don't believe that justifies creating more Tulpas or replacing one-on-one meetings. At the very least, the Tulpas effected by this should be informed and allowed to choose what they prefer.

 

[Gerodious] I need to do more experimenting first, but I believe I am dependent on bringing Gray with me to exploring my desired fictional world. I learned the hard way that I will always be asleep otherwise.

 

(To give some context for Duck's post- He was commenting about the idea of a host wanting to escape their world and go into wonderland. During one of Cat's wonderland trips, Duck was involved and she was experiencing a really strong sense of wonderland immersion.)

 

[Duck] There was one time Cat got scared when she came to talk to me. She got really sucked in to my world and she was confused. She seemed consumed by fear and it scared me too. I don't know why other people would want that, being bossed by their emotions like that.

 


 

To touch on some of SC's comments about unconscious processes: I agree that that's a real thing and information can be processed while you are not aware of it, however I doubt the unconscious mind is powerful enough to support a wonderland and a Tulpa's adventure being as fantastic as if you had traveled to another world. If that were the case, multitasking would be so much cooler than it actually is.

 

Bear, I agree with you up to the point where you talk about a Tulpa having their own secret unconscious memories only they can access. If the memories were unconscious (like a dream?), then their experiences may leak out unconsciously by influencing their beliefs without them realizing it, but I don't think they would be able to pull up elaborate scenes and stories about what they did on their own.

 

I get the sense that because you usually prefer to keep the others active, you never actually leave your Tulpas alone. I think it's reasonable to say that Dashie could have a fantastic story to share about how she went to a gunshow, went shopping, played beach volleyball with her sisters, and then later saved a town because you kept her awake the entire day and that gave her enough time to have that wonderful experience.

 

The one thing I keep finding confusing is how consciousness and switching works and whether or not this may be related to this. In my mind, Cat will always see everything because she's "front-stuck", so the idea of Cat not being there watching is beyond me at the moment. If Cat were to detach and complete a switch with me, would it be revealed that I can do things on my own and some of these things would start to occur?


Spirit, Gerodious, Dark Gray, Fernardo, Jasper, Hope, Moltosha, Blue, Evergreen, Fish, Red Gray, Chrome, Bune, Exabier, Duck

Gray/Cat_ShadowGriffin- host, Ranger- basically host
[Click Here!] [We have an ask thread now!]

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