Merging General Discussion

[FallFamily]

[breach] You know the advice about letting one's tulpas deviate and embracing them through their deviation. I think that applies equally well here. The split is essentially a big deviation. It is no different from a tulpa whose gender ends up different than the host planned, one who ends up liking different foods, ends up with a different form, etc. It may help to mourn the old Alex and then embrace both the resulting people.

[Jun and Alexis]

Temar: The reason there is so much distress between all of us is that since they split longterm they fight over my attention, the Ayako side seems really grouchy and doesn't want to do anything but fix the situation we're in, IE everything back to normal. It's also very stressful for her to a have Alexis "butt in" and argue with her and vice versa. They just don't get along and I feel guilty spending time with 1 while the other watches us. I also feel like I can't cuddle with either due to jealousy. I've been hit with "It's painful to exist like this" more than once.

 

Breach: I love and accept both of them, but because there are two that don't get along with each other the harmony is gone. It's not about embracing change by accepting both of them, it's that they are unhappy to remain in these forms all split up. I also feel like I can't spend time with one without being guilty of neglecting or making the other jealous.

 

They're just both unhappy like this and have been asking me to fix them but I don't know how.

 

As of last night we tried something. 2 minds in one woman body so they have to cooperate and get along, and I can not worry about neglecting the other. Had a good night's sleep for once. I just asked then how they're doing and they both don't like it but only one wants out.

 

I still don't know what to do. Merging them seems easiest to make her happy but I can't do anything without their consent out of the love I have for them.

[Temar]

My suggestion would be, before you continue with this question of merging, you should sit down with them and find ways to help them get along with one another. That sounds like it's the biggest cause of the discord in your system, and there's no guaranteeing that merging would fix it, or even work in the state they're in.

 

I know what it's like to have disagreements with a headmate. I'm one of two extremely prevalent soulbonds in our system, and let's just say the other guy and I have some fundamental differences.

 

(Joss: He just called me an ass in our headspace. Just so you all know.)

 

However, for all that we disagree pretty frequently and about some pretty important issues, we also both recognize that we need to work together to make sure the whole system stays healthy and harmonious.

 

In short... we both need to make compromises.

 

You say your girls get jealous of one another. This strikes me as

 

(Joss: Immature. He's thinking of a polite way to say "immature.")

 

No, I hesitated because that's not the right word.

 

(Joss: Selfish?)

 

Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

See what I mean? We bicker more than I like to admit. But when things get serious, we know we need to sit down and talk things out like adults (or occasionally, avoid one another until some steam has been let out). This isn't always easy nor fun, but it's something we both agree to do when our arguing starts putting stress on our host or system.

 

When you live in such close quarters with someone, you're not always going to get along. Especially if that person is a rival for attention you'd always thought of as yours alone. It's a bit like what happens when an only child gets a sibling, I think... you make room for the new arrival and just have to accept that you're not the center of attention anymore.

 

For us, that means a teamwork mindset. We work as a team to help our host and our system.  There's a certain comradery in that, so that even when we argue, we know that we're on the same side, not rivals. Usually. ;)

 

(Joss: The exception being when I'm right.  :cool: )

 

In your case, OP, would coming up with compromises work? One gets your attention in the morning, and the other in the evening, that sort of thing? Or they alternate days? Creating some sort of agreement that is equal between them might lessen the tension enough for some constructive communication to take place.

 

And that's what you need, I think. Before you can resolve this issue of whether or not you should merge, you need to find some harmony in the state you have now. Until you do, you're probably going to be locked in a stalemate about the merging thing. Once you do, you'll be able to look into what sorts of compromises might work for everyone.

 

 

(Joss: And here's my take on this, since I'm already here snarking:

 

If the three of you really want to solve this? You all need to put personal feelings aside and start considering what's best for the system. Like it or not, you three are existing together right now, and you're not going to be able to change that until you come to some sort of accord, or at least a truce. If this is really as unlivable as your host makes it sound, suck up your personal issues and start looking at the big picture. Alexis and Ayako, I have to assume you care about your host, so you have to be aware that you are causing him unnecessary stress with your arguing. How about not doing that?

 

Also? Your host's attention isn't a contest. And this is coming from someone who, yeah, I'll admit, is an attention hog. I like attention, and will demand it when I want it. But most of the time? Whoever gets the attention is the one who gets it, period. Personally, I find Temar's suggestion of alternating days ridiculous, because you should not be keeping a log of that sort of thing, nor trying to keep it "equal." It's never going to be equal, and trying to keep it that way should not be something any of you waste your attention on. Ask any system here with multiple tulpas... pretty sure they'll agree with me that trying to keep such careful control of the host's attention is unreasonable and exhausting. So don't try to keep it equal... but don't be freaking greedy about it either. Like Temar said, your headmate is part of your team, and so you should be happy for them when they get their due. I can't believe I have to say this but: your sister is not your enemy, and treating her as such is only causing unnecessary problems for all three of you.)

 

Of course, all this is with the disclaimer that we can only tell our own personal experience, and it's hard to get a good grasp of a situation as complex as yours from just some text on the internet. So forgive us if we've misunderstood anything.

 

(Joss: Or don't. Whatever.)

[Jun and Alexis]

Temar and Joss, you are both very wise.

 

They still are residing in one body for the sake of cuddles and combined attention, and after reading your post they agreed to a truce.

 

You see the reason for the jealousy isn't just attention, we're in a romantic relationship and it's esentially promoting polygamy and frustration now. We've tried that alternating days thing and I can't stand having one of them away from me even if the other is here. Both girls in one body cooperating helps the situation but in the end they're still two people, even if we can cuddle without neglect now (Last night was a cuddlefest and made me super happy for a change). I think it takes a toll on Ayako though since she's super possessive of me. Like if Alexis calls me my pet name "Jun," Ayako will yell at her saying "only I can call him that" since being called Jun makes me super happy and it's an endearing and loving petname.

 

If we weren't romantically involved this wouldn't be such an issue to be quite honest. We could just be besties and do stupid things all day, but our favorite thing to do is cuddle and kiss, obviously promoting jealousy if they were in 2 bodies.

 

That's why I think merging is the way to go, but I don't want any resentment. I love them both equally because they're two halves of the whole I love.

 

Right now we're going to work on just getting along. I try to break up any fights but there haven't been many since the single body, two minds change.

 

It just feels like things can't go on the way they are. Alexis doesn't mind sharing a body with Ayako if she can be with me again, but Ayako completely minds.

 

I agree on bringing back the harmony. That's first priority. It's just... Ayako is unhappy and I'm depressed I can't help because I don't know what to do.

 

 

What kind of compromises were you two speaking of to better our system? Do you have some examples now that I've given a bit more specifics on the situation? It seems like Alexis will go with anything reasonable but Ayako says "I'll go with anything that seems feasible." I just want to help Ayako since she appears to be suffering more than any of us. She's used to having me whenever she wants, all to herself. Of course I want Alexis to be happy too, and I'm willing to put their happiness above my own needs if it comes to that.

 

I want to devote every part of myself to them, even if I end up unhappy, but I know they don't want me unhappy either. That's why we can't make decisions.

 

I really want someone to just tell me what to do. Either from them or someone wise like you guys. I'm still at a loss of what to do, but at least we can relax and hold each other again without conflict.

[Joss]

This is exactly what I mean about putting feelings aside until you figure this out. The romantic issues are just overcomplicating the situation right now. You need to reach a baseline of agreement without the romantic crap getting in the way, because it is getting in the way of your ability to judge objectively what, exactly, is going on.

 

You see the reason for the jealousy isn't just attention, we're in a romantic relationship and it's esentially promoting polygamy and frustration now.

 

So try polygamy/polyamory? If everyone consents and it's not part of a completely one-sided system, you can actually have a healthy relationship that way.

 

But that's not even the point, because this is that romantic crap that's getting in the way.

 

This is the same sort of thing that happens to physical people, too. If you and a significant other are having issues outside the romance of the relationship, sometimes you need to sort that shit out. And yes, sometimes, personal issues can change the nature of the relationship, for both better and worse. Sometimes, you can be very much in love with someone, but issues like physical distance, extended family, money problems, or any number of problems get in the way, and you have to break up for your mutual, longterm health. It happens. And when it happens, you need to look at the situation objectively, mourn what the relationship was, and move the fuck forward.

 

And as long as you're decrying that the romantic part of this relationship is the most important part, you're not going to be able to look at it objectively and figure out a solution. 

 

 

Right now we're going to work on just getting along. I try to break up any fights but there haven't been many since the single body, two minds change.

 

It just feels like things can't go on the way they are. Alexis doesn't mind sharing a body with Ayako if she can be with me again, but Ayako completely minds.

 

You're right. This obviously isn't a longterm solution if it makes one of them miserable.

 

 

I agree on bringing back the harmony. That's first priority. It's just... Ayako is unhappy and I'm depressed I can't help because I don't know what to do.

 

Do the girls also agree to bring back the harmony? Because all three of you need to make an effort to make it work. And it might mean changing the definition of what "harmony" means.

 

 

What kind of compromises were you two speaking of to better our system? Do you have some examples now that I've given a bit more specifics on the situation?

 

Love to, but this depends completely on your individual personalities.

 

Here's an example from our system. One common point of argument between Temar and myself is our host's health. I think she'd be healthier if she slimmed down, while Temar doesn't want to add the stressor of weight goals and whatnot for mental health reasons. So, as part of a compromise, I keep her on an exercise regimen and keep an eye on her eating habits, but we don't put any actual weight goals on her. Neither of us are completely happy with this, but it we both have boundaries about what we are and are not allowed to push.

 

For you guys? Hard to say what a compromise could be, because of this sort of thing:

 

I just want to help Ayako since she appears to be suffering more than any of us. She's used to having me whenever she wants, all to herself.

 

That? That needs to stop. Not just from a tulpa standpoint, but just because of general unhealthiness.

 

Ayako, you don't own your host. Trust me, I understand wanting to be the center of attention, probably best out of my entire system. It's nice having that fuzzy, close host relationship all to yourself from time to time. But what happens if, as happened here, you suddenly have a new system member? Or a close outside friend or family member who's not part of the headspace? Jealousy and possessiveness are the first parts of an abusive relationship. Knock that shit out.

 

Of course I want Alexis to be happy too, and I'm willing to put their happiness above my own needs if it comes to that.

 

I want to devote every part of myself to them, even if I end up unhappy, but I know they don't want me unhappy either.

 

No, see, that's not healthy in the longterm either.

 

Again. this is why you all need to consider this from an objective, non-romantic point of view until it's sorted out. Because none of you seem to be acknowledging that your romantic relationship will have to change if you want both/all members of this to come out happy and sane. That happiness may come with a little heartbreak for a little while, but you'll get over it. Right now, what matters is stabilizing your headspace.

 

I really want someone to just tell me what to do. Either from them or someone wise like you guys. I'm still at a loss of what to do, but at least we can relax and hold each other again without conflict.

 

Without conflict except Ayako being miserable?

 

Creating a two-person subsystem could be a longterm solution, if both of them were on board with it. But they're not right now. There could come a time when Ayako comes around, but that time is not now.

 

So here's me telling you what to do: cut off the romance, cold turkey. No more cuddles, no more smooches, no more cutesy pet names. Hold it hostage if you have to, until you three sit down and draft up a long-term solution all of you can agree to. Formalize it with a written document if you have to, but make sure you all agree to it and think it's equitable.

 

If that means the two-people-in-one-body approach, that's fine, but everyone needs to consent to it or find a different solution. Or maybe it will mean outlining the terms of what, exactly, your longterm relationship with both of them is. All three of you have to be willing to change the nature of your relationship, because it's obvious that clinging to what each of you want out of it is causing this stalemate. Be ready to change the relationship for the good of the system. That includes you, Jun, because hosts need to make compromises here, too. Changing a relationship might hurt for a while, but longterm stability and happiness is the goal, and that is something all three of you should be striving for right now.

 

The point is that you get them to sit down and talk to one another about what the future of the system is going to look like. It sounds like Ayako is going to be the hardest to please here, so ask her what she wants to do (that isn't going back to having you to herself, because seriously) and start from there. You three have to work together, and as long as you're all looking through the romance-vision glasses, no one is going to budge in the way you need them to. Including yourself.

[Solune]

Most of the in depth threads on Merging are from back in 2012, and I'm curious to see how views on the subject have evolved since then.

 

To be specific, this thread isn't about integrating permanently.

I'm talking about the short term combination of two (or more) thought-forms into a new thought-form with it's own unique personality.

 

In the show Steven Universe, some of the characters undergo "Fusion" which is exactly the process I outlined above.

I was captivated by the intense intimacy portrayed, and sad that I would never get to experience it (this was before I had tulpas).

Fast forward a year and heyo: I've got tulpas, and we're on here researching and chatting with others like us... and it's great.

I got back into the show recently and thought to myself, "Wait... tulpas could probably do this!"

Turns out it's kind of a thing, and so we resolved to try it for ourselves.

 

Sol and Luna managed to fuse into a woman we named Ambi. She shares physical and personality traits with each of her halves, but she's clearly different from either Sol or Luna.

It seems to have been a rousing success. Though both Sol and Luna report feelings of "exhaustion" after prolonged fusion.

We've experimented with fusion between other system members, including myself, with varying degrees of success.

As I predicted: It's very difficult for me to do it, since it's a fragile process at best and can be undone by the smallest of distractions.

It's also disorienting. At first you're not sure who you are, then memories/feelings start to come back and you realize you're two people... but also NOT two people.

I've mentioned my philosophy of contradiction before, and I feel certain that it is helping us achieve these fusions.

In fact, whenever I/we stop to question the fusion it immediately comes undone

(worth noting is that when the tulpas fuse without me, they can question it all they want and it doesn't seem to affect the process at all).

The successful attempts involving me have always been due to complete immersion into the feelings of the moment.

 

We've read about there being a "dominant" and "submissive" mind during this process, but so far it seems to be pretty equally distributed (though we obviously need more experience before we can make a conclusion one way or the other). It might just be a subtle difference we haven't noticed yet. As I write this, I suspect that may be the case.

 

I understand and appreciate that others may view this as elaborate self-deception, or may simply think we're doing something other than what we think we're doing.

Feel free to post with any experiences and opinions you may have.

Let's try to keep this thread civil and open minded, bunkos.

[Guest Anonymous]

Civil and open minded check!  My hostie is not allowed to reply.  He is on probation for a while from posting.  

 

Well with Davie and I we are sorta blended all the time.  That's almost kinda sorta the definition of a median system.  So I am not sure how much it applies to fusing two tulpas together or a tulpa and a host together.  

 

Anyway we share emotions, he feels my emotions and I feel his.  We each have distinct thoughts but we can each perceive most of the thoughts of the other.  Sometimes we think in chorus.  It doesn't feel like this takes any extra energy.  It feels more like that is how we naturally are.  We also dream together or perceive each other's dreams.  David and I consider ourselves each an aspect or facet of a single consciousness or mind.  He is very dominant and I am more of an expression, or another identity within that one mind.  

 

The feeling seems very natural to us and very pleasant.  It is not jarring or exhausting or scary or confusing.  Wellll one caveat on the confusing, sometimes we don't know which of us had a specific thought.  We simply assign the thought to the one it seemed to fit best.  Sometimes it doesn't matter cause our thoughts are so merged anyways.  

 

In the plural community there is something called "blending."  From Tulpa.io terminology page:

 

BLENDING

(blurring, being mushy, meshy)

Refers to an experience in which system members’ consciousnesses and/or identities become slightly merged. Can sometimes be confusing to the blended members. It can be experienced as distressing, relaxing, etc. depending on circumstance.

 

MERGING

(integration, fusion)

Two or more system members combining together to form one member, whether temporarily or permanently (integration and fusion generally refer to permanent mergings). Merging is also used to indicate a more complete form of blending. There is partial integration, where two or more members in a larger system merge, and complete integration (sometimes called final fusion) where the whole system merges. Complete integration was once nearly universally touted in psychology circles as the one “cure” for plurality, but has been under increased scrutiny as of late, largely because it often fails to work, or does not last indefinitely, on many systems. While integration can serve to stabilize some systems or may be required to remove a dangerous member, and while it can be important for systems who genuinely would be happier and more functional as singlets, it is often seen by plurals as either something to only be done when the members want to become one person of their own volition or as a last-resort method of restoring functionality to a disordered system, and one that should never be forced on any system, especially functioning ones. Complete integration is also often seen by those who value their plurality as akin to killing every member of a system except one and forcing the remaining member to take on the identities of the lost members. When pushed upon those who do not desire integration, it can be a very traumatic experience and has led to identity crises. This is, again, considered an important decision that can be made only by all members of a given system alone, and no one else–not psychiatrists, not the general public, not even other plurals for them. The process of ‘integrate everyone and other disorders will resolve themselves’ is still in practice by many therapists who do not update their treatment regimes based on new studies.

[tulpa001]

Well, We tried merging once. It is a great way to be really close to your other. Too close. It makes me really uncomfortable.

 

Anyway, we both end up blending all the time while both being in the body to a degree.

 

I wish to say we found it hard to do... It was disturbingly easy. Although, I am happy to report that we also had feelings of exhaustion afterwards?

 

We are trying to separate ourselves from each other right now, so the goal is more or less reverse merging for us.

 

There is lots of exotic telepathic stuff you can do with a tulpa that you can't do with a human. But, I think we will be waiting until I get a much stronger handle on my identity to try this again.

[Floh]

Seems really interesting ! As tulpas come from the same brain as we do, this totally seems possible to me. But (for now I guess?) I don't really get what use this could have.

We are on the same road as Tulpa and his hostie atm, we are trying our best to be 100% separate.

I tend to think merging with the host looks harder because the host is the "dominant thoughtform" in the system.

Have you tried doing this while switching? Like giving Sol the control of the body and merging with Luna in the mindscape ? If you haven't and are able to switch like Tulpa usually describes it, I think this could be an interesting experiment.

[Solune]

Have you tried doing this while switching?

 

Unfortunately we can't switch yet. We're still trying to master imposition and possession. But it is a good idea.

As for uses, it's pretty much just an intimacy/novelty thing.

 

We are trying to separate ourselves from each other right now, so the goal is more or less reverse merging for us.

 

That's understandable. I actually just worked through something similar with Alice. Interesting that even though it was easy for you it was still tiring. I wonder why... I don't know enough about computers to come up with a suitable analogy.

 

Civil and open minded check!  My hostie is not allowed to reply.  He is on probation for a while from posting.  

...

The feeling seems very natural to us and very pleasant.  It is not jarring or exhausting or scary or confusing.

 

Luna: I need to learn to be more firm with Solune (like last night for example). I'm such a pushover sometimes... but only because I love him so damn much.

As always, your unique blend of adorableness and assertiveness is inspiring (see how I called you cute without patronizing you? What I really wanted to say was, "ZOMG YOU ARE THE CUTEST THING PLEASE GOD WHY" but I didn't. Because that would be immature, and it would detract from your other valuable character traits).

See, Sol?! I can be mature when I want to be. I can use big words just like YOU can... friggin' know it all.

 

Sol: ...

 

Solune: ... Anyway, it makes sense you two are naturals at it considering the nature of your system. Perhaps with more practice it won't be so taxing for us (like training a muscle). Also, to clarify, the experience was very much a pleasurable one despite the confusion/fragility.