Enny's new and (Probably) exciting adventures in Tuppermancy (Remastered 2022 ​😎​)

[tulpa001]

Yeah, meditation starts like that. Killing the other thoughts is the main work that needs to be done in meditation before you can do interesting stuff with it. The one other thing that you focus on is just a way to help not thinking the other thoughts. At first.

 

Those other thoughts are your friends, as they are a part of you. So rather than fight them, it is better to acknowledge them, then wait for them to get bored and wander off on their own.

 

The main key is relaxation. The more relaxed, the more control you will have over your own mind. Relax too far and you fall asleep. Becoming more relaxed without falling asleep is part of meditation. This is the reason for those strange sitting positions, as they both aid relaxation and make it hard to fall asleep.

 

The main benefit is actually the relaxation. Anyway, you can do it!

[Guest]

Yeah, sitting positions aren't too good for me, I've found. I usually have hair brushing all over my face, and my legs are all weird feeling and, eh. I usually just lay on the ground, with my legs propped up, no real worries about passing out like that, regardless of how tired I am.

 

Relaxation also hasn't come yet, which kinda blows as things are getting progressively stressful as time goes on (Tax-returns save me pls), but I'm still doing it, I guess. Hopefully something clicks eventually, idk.

 

 

Null-forcing is still happening too, albeit not a lot over the last few days. Off today and tomorrow though, so I'm gonna see about keeping productive, maybe manage to get a little bit of time in for her. Just weird balancing so much. Trying to keep active and exercise, gotta throw the narration in there, make sure I'm eating like six times a day so I don't die or some shit because fucking metabolism and hypoglycemia, meditate for at least fifteen-twenty minutes, then piano, AND THEN some time just to fuck off.

 

Man, if only it could be easy.

[Guest]

Still gooooiiiiing

 

Obligatory post because, ya know.

 

 

Not doing awful, not doing great. Just 'doing'. Meditation is still annoying, but whatever, gives something to do before bed. Haven't been writing like I should be, but I've picked it up a few times still. Regular narration is still going on about as usual, and that's about all there is to say about forcing.

 

I wonder what it is I was working with, last time? Or, to say, when Null was speaking? I thought she was, anyway. There was some conflict in my head, but I seem to have genuinely felt there were moments it was undeniable. Wonder where those are now? Hopefully just around the bend.

 

Am I just incompetent? Something's gotta be going on that hinders me. I've done my best to drop expectations, bolster positive expectations, remove doubt, and maintain healthy skepticism at different points throughout my adventures, here. Not sure what else there is to try, though. Something has to change, I guess. Just don't know what.

 

Wish I'd have just been a little more enthusiastic in the beginning, three years ago. Maybe I could have been a 1-week insta-tupper roleplayer who, in the end, wound up with the same thing everyone else had, simply through time and attention given to the presumed sentient tupper.

 

Oh well.

[Reisen]

Hey, I want you to know that I acknowledge how much effort and dedication you've put into this even though you haven't seen great results. You're doing really well to keep it up, and keep picking it back up, even without success to reinforce that motivation. We respect that a lot! We've been dealing with the same thing in lucid dreaming for seven years. You haven't failed until you give up.

 

 

I found a couple of posts that were partially what I want to say here, but not entirely. Try and take what applies, and I know a lot is stuff you've heard before. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sentience-time-3-years-so-far-i-don-t-know-what-to-do-i-need-help?pid=166257#pid166257 &

Puppeting is not a bad thing and is practically unavoidable. Don't get caught up in trying to make every single experience "legitimate" this early on because they won't be.

 

So, this guy kind of said what I was thinking about writing here, though not quite as much -

I don't think maintaining a suspension of disbelief is the right way to approach tulpas. Your experiences and perception of your tulpas need to be something that you believe is valid, not something that you're hoping you'll eventually believe.

 

{Hey! It's me, post-textwall Reisen. I wrote a lot, for a mix of reasons. I felt like all the effort you've put into this warranted it, I want to use this as a reference post later for others, and I kind of just said whatever came to mind the whole way through. Sorry if it's too much! I don't know how to shorten it, everything feels important you know?}

 

 

With that nonsense out of the way so I don't feel like you're relying on just me for advice.. I think you shouldn't try to rely on any of the automatic stuff anymore. Expectations and waiting aren't working, and if they haven't up til now they probably won't just start. So, focus on Tewi's quote! If you're willing to put aside the comfort of the suspension-of-disbelief approach, I still feel like anyone can effectively make a tulpa. It might sound bad to you being.. a member of this forum.. but I think you should parrot your tulpa, to use their terms. To use mine: just imagine her talking! Stop worrying about it being her or not. Disregard all notions of real or fake for a while. You just need to teach your mind how your tulpa should talk. If I want to, I can imagine anyone talking and saying things like I think they would, whether Obama or Mistgod or my host himself. But you don't have to worry about getting it wrong, because you know your tulpa as well as they can be known. So talk to them and imagine them responding, regardless of whether you think they are or not. You get what I mean? No tulpamancy terms here, just imagine you're talking to your tulpa and they're talking back. Since you'd reasonably be concerned about exclusively parroting them in the future, you could just do this in "forcing sessions". Like, make it clear when you are and aren't.

 

The goal is: You become more comfortable with them speaking casually and in their own voice, and your brain isn't so at a loss when you're talking to and expecting a response from your tulpa. A lot of people can get past that step of starting to hear their tulpa without too much trouble, but a lot of people can't. So just take the most direct route and cut out the wishy-washy, yeah? Teach your brain what them speaking sounds like, what they say, how they say it, and get enough experience that them speaking sounds natural.

 

And how to know for sure that eventually it's them talking and not you? Totally classic advice: If you're not purposely intending it, it's your tulpa. "Whether it's really them or you" doesn't mean anything. I think people who worry about that are struggling with the idea of not being their mind. If you think about it, how could it ever really "be" your tulpa and not you, if you're taking credit for everything that goes on in your mind? Those people tend to rely on their tulpa's voice "feeling foreign", but that just feels like too much to ask in my opinion. It's much simpler to rely on autonomy. It doesn't matter how much you puppet or parrot if eventually "you 'puppet' or 'parrot' automatically". That's just having a tulpa, man. The only difference at that point is that you might just not be acknowledging them as them. A host can take credit for everything their tulpa does or says whenever they want. It's really discouraging for the tulpa. And if there isn't a tulpa yet, it's just plain counterproductive. Tulpas aren't magic or a psychological trick to be unlocked, they're autonomy, they're another person's views and thoughts and actions unrelated to yours.

 

I think, even if you're really trying to control your tulpa to act like themselves.. there's a sort of inherent lack of control. Even if "you're controlling them", if you've already created your idea of them and who they are in so much detail, you're still sharing "your" control with that idea's control. You may think you're controlling them, but it's more like you're just giving the incentive for them to do things themselves. Because they'll be doing what they'd be doing, not you, saying what they'd be saying, not what you would.

 

You're making them act like them? Are you? The host can definitely be responsible for the creation of their tulpa's personality and traits, but after that, everything a thoughtform does following those ideas is a result of those ideas. Yes, there is a feeling of having to make them be themselves for hosts who've never had a tulpa before, or shared the mind with a thoughtform anyways. You couldn't know what it's like to accredit a thought or mental action to someone other than yourself. Naturally, it would just feel like you're fooling yourself if you tried to think otherwise. But I dunno. You're here to create a tulpa. You can just take my word for it that eventually the thoughts and everythingelse of your tulpa will feel separate from yours, and they can eventually happen relatively automatically too. Most tulpas still need some amount of attention from their host to do anything in the first place. But how we explain that...

 

That's another textwall entirely. Basically, it has to do with switching, and dissociating the host's sense of self from the mind's basic functions. I'm not the host of our system, but because I'm switched right now, if I don't give the others or my host that same attention, they still can't do anything. It's sort of like I'm the one telling the mind what to do, but the mind never changed, just the person who was controlling it. Whew. Just pretend that made sense, I don't feel up to explaining that in depth right now.

[War]

Although I disagree philosophically, I think I have to agree with Reisen's approach completely. You are a writer, yes? You need some characters running around in your head with the illusion of independent action anyway. It is highly valuable to the craft.

 

It is impossible to get a true tulpa without getting the brain used to certain activities, certain modes of operation. If you are not the sceptical type, you can just create a "tulpa", and eventually they will become a tulpa on their own. The brain becomes used to two seperate bodies of thought until the bodies become independent of each other.

 

For a writer, this can usually be bypassed. Writer's usually have some vibrant lifelike characters running around their brains, sufficiently developed that they can straight up give the author dirty looks if the author writes them wrong. So a writer's brain already is used to the mode of thought a tulpa needs to exist.

 

I don't think you can just attribute thoughts to a tulpa or a host and have that be accurate to reality. But the brain does need time to get used to having two boxes instead of one. Through roleplay, at the very least, this needs to be trained. And this means doing exercises to teach the brain how to think that way. There is no way a tulpa can develop fast in a brain which has only one box. Certainly not fast enough that the tulpa can be responsive or lifelike in this training period itself.

 

A third possibility may be the type of tulpamancer who is comfortable spending endless hours talking to their unresponsive tulpa, and expects them to be listening and thinking the entire time. This expectation will remain unrewarded until after the brain develops that second box. But the imaginings of the tulpa doing all that thinking can form the box.

[Fairweather]

I definitely made Sam with the third option of just talking endlessly to him.

[Guest]

Oh god textwalls. Don't usually get those around these parts, uh

 

 

Reisen-

 

Oh jeez. I've had such a long and love/hate history and relationship with parroting. From my first tupper, until Peachy, and even a few times semi-recently. It's just one of those things that doesn't seem to get much, idunno, better after time. Of course, I have zero concept of something improving over time, as I've never.. I don't know, progressively become better at something. I'm either good, or I'm not. That kind of bleeds in, and has left me really wary of putting my faith (uhh, so to speak) into something like parroting, and expecting it to feel less, I don't know, droll, or pointless, after a while. Well-known fact about me, but I guess it helps to reiterate every once in a while, but I'm no stranger at all to parroting characters, in roleplaying-scenarios. Hell, I spent an hour last night alone going through shit just to keep myself entertained, with various characters, who had unique personalities, keeping tabs on their opinions, previous interactions, and etc. just so that I could make sure they were 'authentic'. And maybe drawing those lines over the course of the last decade and a half is what's really made parroting hard for me. I mean, none of the characters, no matter however long I've been working with them, become like.. Autonomous, you know? I don't understand how they could. Just kind of weird to me, is all. It's probably just the clearly defined settings, and air of 'fantasy', or whatever, though. I don't know.

 

Maybe just setting the terms differently is all it needs, though. Like, this isn't one of my RP's, or stories, or whatever, it's tuppering, and I expect you to become autonomous. I guess that's all there is to it. Still, kind of discouraging in its own way. Just kinda feel like I'm missing out on something, not going through it and achieving results like all of the OG members I look up to.

 

Yeah, I'll, idunno, consider it or whatever. Last time I went into parroting intentionally, and not caring about whether or not anything was 'real', or whatever, I enjoyed myself. Just that nagging feeling that it wasn't the same that made me stop, I guess.

 

 

War- 

 

I'm not really a writer, I don't think. I used to really enjoy it, and wanted to write stuff for a while, but I've found that I'm not so great at it, so I don't bother these days. 'Last thing I wrote was some stupid ponyfic, idunno, a year or something ago. The more recent writing that I've been referring to was just writing in a journal to Null, as another way to fill out our time together. Writing takes longer than speaking, which means that's more time spent thinking about her and stuff. I guess.

 

I certainly don't experience any of what you mention, though, so, yeah. Appreciate the reply, though.

 

 

 

Yeah, idunno. I'll figure it out eventually, or something.

[Reisen]

Although I disagree philosophically, I think I have to agree with Reisen's approach completely.

 

This isn't necessarily the primary way we think or what we practice by the way. We embrace lots of different ways of thinking, and that one seems best for people who are too afraid of fooling themselves or incapable of suspending their disbelief. It's kind of a brute force method of creating a tulpa, because you're cutting out all the things you can't control or have to have faith in and instead being very objective about it.

 

But a lot of people have trouble like, considering their tulpas as legitimately independent if they think like that. But I'm sure it would work for someone..

 

Well-known fact about me, but I guess it helps to reiterate every once in a while, but I'm no stranger at all to parroting characters, in roleplaying-scenarios. Hell, I spent an hour last night alone going through shit just to keep myself entertained, with various characters, who had unique personalities, keeping tabs on their opinions, previous interactions, and etc. just so that I could make sure they were 'authentic'. And maybe drawing those lines over the course of the last decade and a half is what's really made parroting hard for me. I mean, none of the characters, no matter however long I've been working with them, become like.. Autonomous, you know?

 

Well that sounds good, I'm not really saying to parrot as much as just imagining them react and respond as they would, and it's just simpler if they can be reacting and responding to you. But it sounds like you already kind of have that skill. So, you can imagine your characters being themselves just fine? And then I assume, you can do the same with your tulpa? So your problem is literally just the autonomy, huh. I guess that makes sense but it sounds interesting to me.

 

In that case, as much as I don't generally think it works for people who have no success with it for a while, maybe you should just keep up the speaking to them and expecting a response. You should get quick or small thoughts every so often as to what they would say or do, but it probably won't sound immediately clear and foreign. Then I think you'd have to bridge the gap between those automatic reactions and how your tulpa is as a character. If you aren't subconsciously thinking at least a tiny bit about them responding, I guess I'd say you're being too strict. Since you know them as a character well, there's no reason you can't passively know how they'd react to things. And if you know that and well, then the power's all in your expectation of them responding. Eventually you should experience their reactions, even if (and it probably will) it feels like you're the one thinking them. Just do your best not to influence them, keep expecting them from your tulpa, and keep intending when you hear/think them for them to be from your tulpa.

 

At that point that's rather pivotal to tulpamancy, your brain should start making a profile or partition or whateveryouwanttocallit to the thoughts in your mind where certain ones are supposed to feel like they're from your tulpa, not you. That's usually the point where people are unsure if they or their tulpa is the one talking sometimes. From there you keep expecting responses and intending them to be from your tulpa. As far as I can tell, that's where your tulpa's voice starts to develop. Once your brain has an idea of what thoughts to consider separate from each other and how, the ones from your tulpa start to take on their voice to create their mindvoice. Mindvoice being the mix of mental voice and feeling or intent that they communicate with. And it gets so much easier from there. Once thoughts start to "kind of sound like them", it makes it way easier to think of those thoughts as theirs, which strengthens that 'profile' of them in your mind and, I dunno, you've got a tulpa. For example, in our system, anything we say to another which is obviously a thought both feels and sounds like us. We have lots of years of experience, so there's not a doubt in our mind about who thinks what. Because anything anyone thinks literally feels like them, and to the one who's fronting others' thoughts would just feel wrong to try and claim as their own. But it can take a lot of work to reach that point! A lot of unsureness of who's thinking or saying what, and a lot more to get to that point in the first place.

 

I don't really know your brain well enough to tell you what will work for you. But I'm hoping understanding the process (as we understand it at least) can help you get an idea for yourself.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what it is that's supposed to work for me personally. If I could get over the stupid desire for it to feel foreign and grit my teeth for a few months I'm sure just parroting would be fine, but I guess I'm not that kinda person, and I'll accept that. Takes a lot more than I have, or many people have to just, drastically view things in a different light, on command.

 

I do expect a response, I just, also kind of fear responses. Which is incredibly counterproductive, I know. Like, going into it and expecting replies and shit in the past is what I did in the past, and yeah, I guess I always wound up getting something, eventually. Never anything consistently, idunno, concrete, but I guess that's the way of it. And because it's always shaky, I usually just end up throwing it away, because it was produced out of expectation, and not out of whatever magical essence I want my tupper to speak from, I guess. Or something like that.

 

I don't knoooowwwww this suuucks.

 

 

Anyway, been doin' it since the last update, still.. Yeah

 

Cutting off meditation. It's just a waste of time, right now, and I'd rather be doing other things with the twenty minutes a night. It's just been getting progressively harder and more annoying to get into any kind of relaxed state, so fuck it. I'm not even any more stressed with daily life than I usually am, and even if I was, it's not like there's anything I can do about it, so if meditation isn't gonna help in my current place in life, no point.

 

Trying to get in more hours at work, saving up as much as I can over the next year and couple months. Hopefully be able to afford a move to another state and find some better work. As it stands, I'm stuck. Can't get a job anywhere other than where I'm at right now as there's almost literally nowhere else to work within short-driving/walking distance, and I can NOT afford a car on what I'm making here. So yeah, best I can do is save up a few grand by late 2017/early 2018 and move to an area with more, better work at hand. I know it exists, my first job paid three dollars over min wage an hour and was a cakewalk, so there's gotta be something better. Just, gotta prepare for the time it takes to find it, you know?

 

Anyway, yeah, might be able to get into some better state of mind when that time comes, pick meditation back up or something, is what I was getting to.

 

Tuppering itself is kind of on hold for the moment, trying to decide what I want to do. Just talking to Null, treating her like a person or whatever is obviously not working, probably will not work, unless I figure out something drastically different to incorporate into my work, that's not going to be unrealistically difficult. Parroting is probably all there is, but.. Fuck, I don't know. I don't think that's what I want out of this, at all.

 

I need someone to motivate me, pick me up when I'm down, and make sure I'm doing everything I can to secure a more comfortable future, and of course, be a friend. I don't think I can even imagine someone like that, let alone parrot one in genuine effort.

 

I don't know. Music gives me that kind of feeling, I think. There are just some artists or songs who make me want to do something with myself, get up and do something, or sit down and learn the things that I want to learn. I know I can be moved, and convinced to be less.. I don't know. Shit. I know what it feels like not to hate every minute that I'm being unproductive, and not hate myself. I just can't put that feeling into someone else, you know?

[Lucilyn]

Your reasons for quitting meditation sound a lot like the reasons someone could benefit from meditating.. just sayin, it's weird. But apparently you're weird! It's hard to figure out what will work for you because your experiences are so different from ours.

 

You don't gotta parrot, you gotta stop.. I don't know, treating this like such a thing. Think of person and how they are, imagine them saying things, intend those things to happen automatically/passively/on their own and not just when you think of them, by thinking as if there's another entity in your mind that would be doing it. That's as basic as it gets, to me! It's not foreign that you should be expecting really, it's like... automaticness. It might not sound like your tup's straight up talking to you. But, it should seem like the stuff they would be saying comes to mind more easily and with less thinking on your part, and you attribute that to your tulpa-to-be as it gets more regular and then they start to get their own mindvoice.

 

Music did a ton for our development! I know it's a lot of why the first three existed in the first place, obviously the touhou characters were their bases, but all the personality in the music Lumi listened to is what made them people. It helped that Reisen's main songs had videos with her in them to drive that point home to start with. And since then it's always been really, really important to us. Whether for bonding over or a kind of forcing by getting a better idea of who we want to be from them, our songs have always been important. Mine just make me happy, but I guess still, they exemplify the happiness I want to embody, so it's motivation for that! I'm so jelly of how happy and fun the "characters" in my songs are, I want to be like them. And I think the others have similar things with their music, in their own ways.

 

Uh, maybe off topic here, sorry. Anyways, I dunno, good luck! Work on making your knowing of the 'character' more automatic. And when the stuff they would be thinking or saying becomes more automatic, start treating the thoughts like they're your tulpa's. And when you have an OK grasp of there being another entity in your mind, the thoughts associated with them start to get their mindvoice, and eventually their thoughts feel and sound like them! and you shouldn't get too confused anymore. That's also where it becomes a lot easier not to doubt them. Sucks that comes so late into the process.