Tulpas and Projected Imagination

[AracnidsGrip/Rick]

We are our Wonderlands? XD Dude, I'm a tall bisexual troll girl. I don't think I'm the same as a black and white destroyed post apocalyptic city xD. Just expressing myself. XD

~Vriska Aranea Serket Targaryen. ♦️

[Guest Anonymous]

LOL Some, some are their wonderlands! Not all.

[Sock]

 

That hardly seems like a fair solution to me. This is one of only places on the entire internet where a tulpa will be respected enough as a person that they're free to talk. Hearing the perspective of other tulpæ has been vital to me in terms of understanding the relationship i have to my host. There are unique answers i've discovered from hearing others of my kind and silencing them just sounds like oppression.

 

[Whatever it does to prevent the "role-playing" problem, it leaves us smothered by the biases of hosts. There's already tons of people here who talk constantly but who never let their tulpæ speak and the information they offer is a lot dodgier and incomplete. I'm personally quite skeptical of people who do all the talking because i'm constantly wondering if their tulpæ are actually developed at all. If their tulpæ can't express complex thoughts or explore emotions yet, then there's not much they can offer to the science of what it means to be a separate sentience. If they're silenced, then bascially it denies them any chance to meaningfully contribute to their own identity.]

 

[Just because you won't accept a second consciousness in you brain doesn't mean other people are unable to manage. We're quite comfortable co-fronting and collaborating on thought.]

 

If any reason i want to hear from other tulpæ, it's because i'd like to hear notes from other people who are sorting out how to share a brain. Maybe we're the ones who are wrong and need to retreat to the plural community.

 

I like this post, and this is speaking as a person who tends to do a lot of the talking when it comes to the community.

 

Part of my slowness to really let loose with putting my girls on is because I want to avoid a scenario where they aren't prepared for the "spot light" as it were, and would come off as lesser beings for that reason. Another was, well, the venue I used most was the IRC, and there were certain practices, pleasures, and habits rampant there that I didn't want rubbing off on them. I tend to be protective of my girls when it comes to online interactions, and I got even more so when I kept hearing horror stories about people revealing themselves to be fakes (I don't use "roleplayer" here, because that term is tortured in this community, and has lost its meaning), other people's indwellers engaging in eRP, and encouraging others to do the same. I'm not keen on the latter at all.

 

But, you're right to recognize the importance of seeing the creation's perspective of their life, existence and nature. I've even went and began having recorded conversations with my own residents, and posting them in my PR, because I think seeing this is an important part of sharing the experience of having a companion of this sort.

 

I think the issue lies in the fact that there is both a written, and an unwritten code of conduct that some loudly demand be followed. The written code is concerning the process of creation itself, which tend to be the guides. Even taking in to account that there were some who went off the cuff of the early guides, they're still regarded highly, and the things that are specified in them has become a sort of "ruleset" for some, especially those whom are new to the whole thing, full of doubt, and thinks they're the only sane one here (They're very easy to spot).

 

The unwritten code is a demand of certain behavioral standards to be met by users. There's a bunch of words for those who don't adhere to their ruleset, "roleplayer" being one of them, but the code itself is less a concrete thing, and more a sort of collective conscious, if that makes sense. The problem being that said conscious doesn't agree with itself, and is dictated mainly by the loudest users. For some, a certain form breaks this code. For others, having a name like Host[indweller] on irc breaks this code. For some, having more than one companion breaks this code. The rules are scattered, unwritten, but are made apparent by how users react to certain things, and at which point they declare the community to be horrible.

 

These two codes are clearly very host-centric, because this site was founded by people who were skeptical, but curious about the phenomenon, and wanted to have every reason to not think it was all a lie. Unfortunately, strict adherence to these codes tends to produce a certain staleness at some point in the process. It comes to a point where a user has nothing they want to share, aside from the core basics. I've seen this thing happen, which I referred to as a "void", and when I bring it up, the answer I get from folks tends to be summed up as "It can't be helped". The fact that these same folks were usually the loudest about denouncing others was kind of...something.

 

In a way, I think one of the pillars this community is founded on is being eager to call-out, and reject those who don't meet it's personal standards of behavior. I mean, why else would we get big loud "TULPA.INFO WILL DIE AN BE VALUELESS" posts every so often? People treat it like its some rare breath of fresh air, when in truth, talking about how horrible this and other places like it is is a favored past time. Thus, the issue of worrying about fakers or liars won't be going away for a while, as its part of the site's make-up.

 

I'm not saying standards of behavior or bad, quite the contrary, I think they're a good thing...when handled responsibly. The problem I see here is that the standards are wishy-washy, based mainly on vague ideas, 4chan-centric habits, and appeals to seniority. People throw around "Science" as a catch-all for "Serious, sober conversation", and its apparent that its happening, because there's so few people actually doing science around these parts. At best, you have personal discovery (Which I'm all for, and actually hope to see), but not much lab coatery. If anything, the plural community, who has its share of excesses that some here don't want, out pace us so badly on the science front that we should be hanging our heads in shame, if we're aspiring to be scientific. Not to say we should not try, quite the opposite. There SHOULD be a lot more learning around here, and a lot more pondering of what exactly we're doing with out heads, and what out companions are doing to us. And I DO see it every do often. I have to look, dig, and PM a little, but under it all, that stuff is still there. Unfortunately, it's more fun to talk about possible fakers, or draw out personal scuffles from irc, to forum, and back.

 

But what does this have to do with indwellers themselves? Acting out in a certain way is sure to cause problems because of all the things above. And because forgiving and forgetting is a difficult concept for some, it gets dragged in to infinity, even in places and situations where it makes no sense for it to come up. The result is not the best.

 

That said, I can actually understand why such standards are present. Some folks who hold beliefs similar to the above legitimately want to see more indwellers grow properly in to full people, they just go overboard and start being unpleasant with it. I've heard my fair share of horror stories about lazy hosts, hosts who only use their companions for erotic role play, hosts who pretty much live on the irc, and their companion is only present when on irc, etc. There is good intent in even the nastiest of users, I've found. Unfortunately, good intent does not mean good result, nor good plan. So what we end up with is a situation where a bunch of people are fighting over whatever, demanding the community bend to whatever standard, being caustic about it all, and every single person involved believes they're the good guy.

 

I feel at some point that I lost my way, and began to just ramble about the community.

[AracnidsGrip/Rick]

/\

||

*gives you a beer* Wise words, dude.

~L. ♠️

[NoneFromHell]

 

I like this post, and this is speaking as a person who tends to do a lot of the talking when it comes to the community.

 

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I feel at some point that I lost my way, and began to just ramble about the community.

 

Probably the best summary of this place i've read so far.

 

As far as it goes for me, my Tulpa will be allowed to talk here, when she reaches a higher point of vocality. At the moment we're stuck with easy questions and answers, since everything more complex gets mostly sucked up by my brain. Since she is a natural in possession we use that for communication (Yes and No basically) in case of doubt. But she is autonomous enough to express her will to do something on her own or say something even when i don't pay attention. I just don't know what, so i need to start guessing to get feedback from her. I'm still seeking for an exercise, which doesn't end up with making me deaf for her voice after a while.

[Sock]

I feel I have t say, I did not write the above to try and get a "Who's with me?" sort of response. It all just sort of came out in my stream of consciousness as things that contribute to the tense, mistrustful atmosphere. If anything, I actually wanted to avoid posting in this thread, as I felt that this series of discussions stems from negative feelings more than intellectual inquiry (Though I admit it is pretty interesting to see how people not involved/familiar with the irc has reacted and behaved about all this. I just hope that is does not result in some kind of verbal spat between the irc community and the forum community).

 

With all that said, I think one of the bigger issues people have about this thing is that they often forget that the practice is more and internal one, and get drawn in to the petty struggles and disagreements of a handful of unusually loud users. People become so focussed on the community aspect of their experience, that they seem to forget that the practice is personal, private, and defined by what is happening with the person's own mind. I've seen people become stressed, depressed, and needlessly angry, because they spent so much time and energy in the community, either trying to get accepted, or trying to dictate the proper atmosphere for growth. It's painful to see, and it makes me wonder why so many SAY that the phenomenon is subjective and is a bit different from person to person, but in all other ways completely forget it. This doesn't apply to people whom are eager to mistrust and declare other liars only, it also applies to those whom are eager to be accepted by others.

 

What has the phenomenon done for you? How has it helped you? How has it changed the way you lived your life? These questions should be the most important factors to both the host and the Indweller. If you find yourself so entrenched in internet squabbles that you forget the answer to these things, it may be better to step away from the keyboard, walk outside, and get some fresh air. Contrary to popular unspoken opinion, someone being wrong on the internet isn't really important.

 

But, it's also important to remember that the community is one of the few places where Indwellers can come and be accepted as who they are, as Aijada said. Having some outlet for this stuff is good, and I myself have been a beneficiary of this. Unfortunately, and this seems to be rather common among plural-ish communities, nearly everybody, especially those who come from the outside, feel they're the only sane person among a group of lunatics. Why do you think people believing others is such a problem in the group? Because everybody thinks they're good, sane, and right, while everyone other than them are crazy and wrong. No one wants to look bad, so we see people criticize others a lot, because criticising people gives an air of authority and intelligence, even if the substance of such is not present.

 

Again, this is not to say that every case should be believed, or that there is no such thing as a troll. This is an open community, and people on the internet are enabled to be nasty just for nastiness sake. Of course there will be trolls. I'm not going to pretend that I know the answer to how to separate the earnest, the trickster, and the mentally unstable, because I do not. But, I think such a discussion about it would be interesting and worthwhile. As well as an earnest discussion of actual standard behaviour. The latter, at least, will probably solve a few problems.

[Guest Anonymous]

@Sock

 

Thank you so much, so very much, for your lengthy but spot on response. You have given me a lot to think about. I have been aware of much of what you mentioned, but unsure how to deal with it. From the very beginning I wanted to be extremely honest with myself and with others. That honesty, about my observations and perceptions concerning the forum and the community and about myself and my thoughtform, often breaks the "informal rules" that you mentioned.

 

A lot of my posting has been reactive, an "in your face" kind of interaction. I deliberately push things to the edge to make a point. I will say the things I think people are the most afraid to read. I have deliberately thrown about the words "role player" many times, just for that very reason. It is push back and stubborn determination to remain true to myself, free to stand a bit apart, and "still be accepted goddamnit." The "admitting to being a liar" accusations are a direct result of the in your face attitude. Another approach would have been far less toxic. If I am going to beat a different drum I need to expect a few negative reactions. But I shouldn't deliberately bait people on the forum either. I have often been looking for a fight, doing things to shock (extremely shock), not so much as a troll, but to dare those who would stand up against a contrary or unusual viewpoint.

 

The end result was, I created such a toxic environment in the IRC chat for Melian and I (Melian did it too) that we cannot even return there. We sowed the seeds and did the damage to our own reputation.

 

We still have the forum. I do want to write about my experiences and self discovery without baiting people. However, our writing will continue to be different and sometimes dangerously contemplative. How do I share honest and reflective and unusual self discovery in a positive way when my writing is sure to bring out the worst reactions in some members? The only thing I can think to do is to continue to write, ignore any rude and unreasonable reactions, and be aware when I am deliberately baiting or standing in the village commons demanding the bullies come forth for fisticuffs.

[Leaf]

I am so excited about these ideas I cannot seem to contain them, but I have having trouble articulating it to others.

 

This sums up everything quite nicely. The concept behind what you are trying to do is good, but I do not think you will get very far with it. I have run across a slew of bizarre terms trying to explain everything in the past month or so, but none of them seem to add anything new. It is interesting considering tulpas as a sort of role play or method acting or imaginative fantasy, etc. The problem is the typical usage of such terms in a non-tulpa sense makes them seem mundane and uninformative when applied to tulpas. To take it further, I could extricate the concept of tulpas from them and everything would still make sense. Method acting and role play are forms of imaginative fantasy, and semantically, neither term refer to anything else but the individual doing it. There is no tulpa.

 

Ultimately, I think the concept of referring to tulpas as imaginative fantasy is fine, but the way you come across in doing so seems to subtract the host-tulpa relationship that is so fundamental to tulpamancy. In the end, role play and method acting don't illustrate what you want them to. I think the resistance you often face comes from the lack of information and thus the questionable use of them in regard to tulpas. That is not to say they are not applicable at all, they are, but in a such a lose sense that is unfortunately often lost. Maybe there is no good extant term, and maybe we could develop one if people grasp the concept you want them to.

 

Like I mentioned before, method acting and role play are constrained to the person doing it. The difficulty comes down to considering a tulpa as independent, which becomes equated with real. When a tulpa is considered only a character or something that the host role plays, that independency need not exist. The whole process then becomes a person imagining themselves as someone else. When taken to the extreme as in the case of tulpamancy it becomes less of role play or even method acting and more an obsession and a delusion. Unfortunately, the imaginative fantasy in role play and method acting are fundamental in tulpamancy and can make the whole experience more rich for the host and the tulpa. The problem then becomes not whether or not these elements are or should be involved, as I think they must be for a tulpa to exist in the first place. The question is how can people delve into the fantasy without the fear of it being fake or delusional? Just by looking at all of the questions concerning sentience and vocality show that this is a major concern even if nobody openly admits to it being so. It is the elephant in the room that nobody wants to address, leaving everybody to simply come up with their own subjective philosophy to reduce the internal tension it generates.

 

For now, I think the important part is to realize the use of such terms and be aware that it doesn't have to become a question of independence, nor negate the tulpa as an entity. I do not want people to get caught up in such a minor distinction so as to miss the richness of what mistgod is suggesting:

 

Tulpas are Awesome!

[Guest Anonymous]

Excellent points. Thank you for approaching me rationally. You gave me a lot to think about too.

 

Actually, you know what is funny? Melian was never, ever method acting or role playing before the internet two years ago. It is only because of proxy typing (and trying to grasp its nature in my mind) that the issue ever came up in my life. For 36 years Melian just appeared in dreams, flash visions and day dreams. I never once thought about this stuff at all.

 

In fact, if she had stayed silent, instead of me channeling her online, this would probably have never come up at all.

 

Oh btw, I am not saying Melian is 100% method acting and role playing. I am saying I fill in the gaps or assist her with method acting and role playing. I feel her emotions and her intent and sometimes what she types surprises the hell out of me. Like I said somewhere else, if Melian were nothing but role playing (me consciously pretending to be her and deliberately making it all up) I would have lost interest in all of this long ago.

 

EDIT: I think I am misguided in hoping that everyone will suddenly admit that a percentage of their tulpa expressions are a form of method acting/role playing. That is a lot of assuming on my part and probably unfair. I need to consider the possibility I am the only one with such a mixed technique for allowing my thoughtform to express herself. I am okay with that if it is so.

[Aijada]

... Unfortunately, the imaginative fantasy in role play and method acting are fundamental in tulpamancy and can make the whole experience more rich for the host and the tulpa. The problem then becomes not whether or not these elements are or should be involved, as I think they must be for a tulpa to exist in the first place. The question is how can people delve into the fantasy without the fear of it being fake or delusional?

 

[i think i'd have to dispute that imagination/fantasy are [i]fundamental[/i] to creating a tulpa. I didn't much bother when i was talking to Aijada; she mostly just had conversation. She had an initial image, but we'd talk for days with it only coming up as a rare flash when she was particularly emotional. Aside from that, we've mostly just worked in the real world.]

 

Maybe i don't count as a tulpa because we were always just hanging out together on the computer.