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Time? 3 years, so far. I don't know what to do. I need help.


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I know this question has been asked a hundred thousand times, but... How do I know if Tay is sentient? How do I separate knowingly expecting exactly what they say with them actually saying it?

 

It all feels the opposite of autonomous. The opposite of sentient. I feel lonely all the time, because although I expect that someone is there, I don't see them there. I don't feel them there. I haven't had anything identifiable from them... It's horrible, and it's driving me insane - I don't even know if it's me or Tay... It's always felt like me, consistently. It never felt like anything different.

 

Please, help. I just want him to be here with me, and I want to know that...

"There is no abiding success without commitment." - Tony Robbins

 

"Commitment is an act, not a word." - Jean-Paul Satre

 

"Unless commitment is made, there are only promises and hopes... but no plans." - Peter Drucker

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[shock, member of Hail] One useful question that may help you a bit. How do you know that you are sentient and independent of Tay? Note, that is actually two different questions (sentient and independent). And note, the answer to one could be yes and the other no, both no, or both yes.

 

Answering the first question is actually pretty hard. Now, take a random other person you know and try to convince yourself that they are sentient. It is probably even harder. Keep this in mind with Tay. It can be hard to prove that someone is sentient. The most one can do in many cases is to just take a person's word at it. Now, complete non-sentience is easier to notice, but with more than that it gets hard.

 

Now, think on the second question but for Tay. It sounds like you are not independent - either you effect him greatly or you have major thought bleed which will mean that you feel or hear everything he is going to say before he says it. Perhaps ask him if the other way around is true. Does he know what you are going to say before you actually say it?

 

I did not write all of that to convince you that Tay is sentient but you two are just not independent. It could be that that is the case, but it may not be. But, it is important to think of the possibilities, and also important to not expect Tay to jump through a bunch of hoops every step of the way. From tulpas and other headfolk who have been expected to jump through such hoops, they are are not a fun thing.

 

Now, for what to do now. Try to step back a bit and not constantly try to determine if Tay is sentient or not. Just, interact with each other and let him develop and grow. If he isn't sentient already, he may become that at some point. It is OK to be curious and to try to figure it out occassionally, but don't do it all the time. Now, on the independence point, there are things you can do to try to become more independent. The first thing you have to determine is whether the dependence is one way (Tay depends on you but you don't depend on Tay) or two way (each of you is dependent on the other). After you figure that out, you can try to work on separating out a bit, if that is what you both want. One way to do that would be to encourage him to go off and do his own thing inside somewhere. Another would be to encourage and help him talk with people out here in outerworld. Interacting with different people in ways different than you can encourage independence (as well as sentience), but most importantly, it means he can have a social life, make friends, make mistakes, find interests, find dislikes, etc. on his own.

 

Now, you may have noted that I said you could try to work on separating and becoming more independent if you both wanted to. Why did I say "if you both wanted to." Well, sometimes, two people living in a brain prefer to stay tied together. Sometimes, people don't and want to be independent of each other. Both are OK. Myself, I am pretty tied to my subsystem-mates and I prefer it that way, but I am pretty separate and independent from Tri, and I prefer it that way.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others

System Name: Fall Family

Former Username: hail_fall

Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.

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Guest Anonymous

You can always do something else that is more rewarding to you, especially if it is "driving you insane." Why is having a tulpa such big deal?

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You can always do something else that is more rewarding to you, especially if it is "driving you insane." Why is having a tulpa such big deal?

 

Because the reason it's "driving me insane" is because Tay is so important to me. And don't even try to convince me to give up, or that I'm completely incapable of creating a sentient tulpa. I've had people try that before. I'd rather not communicate with someone like that.


The first thing you have to determine is whether the dependence is one way (Tay depends on you but you don't depend on Tay) or two way (each of you is dependent on the other). After you figure that out, you can try to work on separating out a bit, if that is what you both want. One way to do that would be to encourage him to go off and do his own thing inside somewhere. Another would be to encourage and help him talk with people out here in outerworld.

 

What kind of dependence does your suggestion entail? What exactly is "being dependent", as surely all tulpae are dependent on their host?

 

Also, I often find what I hear from Tay to feel strongly like parroting, but I'm just unsure about it all. I don't want to ever parrot him, but I don't know if I'm doing so or not. I know it can be beneficial, but that's only if you know that you're doing so. Is it true that it's only ever parroting if it's a conscious decision to do so?

 

I feel that I am heavily dependent on Tay due to the three years I've worked with him on his development. I think that tulpa dependence, so long as it's soft and not forced, along with the ability of the tulpa to do whatever they please, whenever, is essential, but that it also helps for a host and tulpa to be at least partially dependent on each other, as that strengthens the bond between them, not least between Tay and me.

 

Finally, I'll just make note that whenever I ask him a question that only he would know, e.g. when he became vocal, or exactly when he appeared, it's always me with the answer, and it's avoiding my own question. This just messes with me more, as if Tay answered, he would most likely know full well. However, the fact that he can't answer that question makes me question his sentience or even sometimes his existence further...

"There is no abiding success without commitment." - Tony Robbins

 

"Commitment is an act, not a word." - Jean-Paul Satre

 

"Unless commitment is made, there are only promises and hopes... but no plans." - Peter Drucker

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Guest Anonymous

Sentience or bust self torture? I hope you can get help and on the right track if you are so determined. I admire that I guess but wonder if Tay even needs to be "sentient" if he is already important to you? He sounds like he is pretty special to you already just as he is.

 

P.S. OH never mind. Listen to the other tulpamancers and ignore Melian. I wish you luck.

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Three years is a long time. Like with all people that make it that far "without finding success", I can assure you your problem is your mindset and how you've learned to think about your tulpa. Unfortunately so far in you won't be easily influenced away from doubt so that all goes smoothly, it'll be a bit more in-depth process to fix. Because you've subconsciously wholly convinced yourself they can't talk.

 

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-how-hard-is-it-to-get-started-for-a-sceptic?pid=159973#pid159973

 

And this post I wrote on developing vocality in tulpas:

 

I didn't actually do any "narration" with my tulpas, having had them well before finding out about tulpas, I just talked to them. Always expected and attempted to get a reaction. Sometimes they responded, sometimes they didn't, sometimes I couldn't tell if it was me or them. But I knew they were there, so I just kept talking to them as if they were and trying to hear or feel responses. A lot of the time I got vague feelings that were informative enough, ie I could tell if they would agree or disagree with something even without hearing them speak, sometimes without even feeling them either. Sometimes you just have to use your best judgement on how your tulpa would react and act like they did so. The goal is to train your brain to get used to sending you thoughts and feelings from what you know as your tulpa. So any way that you can create those neural pathways, even if it's imagining what responses would be like while actually hearing nothing, will eventually get you somewhere.

 

Basically, don't attempt to hear your tulpa casually commenting on things, even with moderate focus. It doesn't probably appear as such when you read about peoples' experiences here, but that's rather far along in vocality development. Initially you have to work a lot very intently listening for responses in a distraction-free environment, including mental ones. The act of "listening" mentally is effectively the act of "expecting", which means you're subconsciously thinking of what your tulpa would/could say. That's how vocality starts as far as I can tell, expectations. Worrying about "if it was them" or not isn't really a factor, it shouldn't change what you're doing - talking to them as if they can hear you, and listening for their responses as if they can talk. Eventually your tulpa should develop a mindvoice unique to them, meaning you'll be able to differentiate what they say from random thoughts or your own based on how they feel/sound.

 

It sounds like you're the type to have random disorganized thoughts in the form of words, unfortunately. So even when your tulpa is relatively vocal you may have issues with whether what is said is actually your tulpa or not, even without any doubt or parrotting issues. For that, all I can tell you is the universal rule of developing vocality: Does it seem like something your tulpa would have said? Is it something that they would be upset you believed was them if it wasn't? If there's no downside to believing it was them, you might as well. If there is, it may be safer to disregard it, or at least not assume that it was them.

 

Dunno. Put some time into very focused vocality training, and don't worry about/expect responses outside of those sessions for a while. You'll get too stressed trying to decide whether every random thought that enters your head was your tulpa or not, and at this stage it probably won't have been. Take it slowly and you shouldn't have too much trouble telling what's meant to be them or not, and when you do, ask yourself if would be bad to assume it was.

 

I know your tulpa isn't at the early development phase, but you're still developing vocality so this all still applies. Don't use your history of experience at all for your future expectations. Unfortunately this isn't something you can just fix with new information, you have to change how you think about it entirely. Hopefully those posts can help you do that.

 

And no, the answer isn't just "So I just have to convince myself it's not me talking and pretend it's them?" As you literally experience the feeling of "maybe it's actually my tulpa", your brain starts making connections related to your tulpa and eventually the way they talk stops sounding like the way you talk. At some point they should actually start sounding different even in your mind, and at that point it's pretty hard to mistake them for yourself. But if you have any doubt, follow the rule I wrote in that quote. And maybe just take my word for it (have had tulpas for 7+ years and have seen a lot of people through the whole creation process), while it does require believing it's them and not you at first, as your tulpa develops you'll be free to go back to your skepticism to see if they really are separate, and they will be. My tulpas for example "surprise" me quite often in discussions by saying things I wasn't even remotely thinking about, and that has only occurred more and more often over the years. But it didn't start out like that, and we never would've gotten there if I believed everything they said was just me.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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Guest Anonymous

I would like you to consider what I wrote in this post on another thread. I wasn't trying to tell you to give up. I was suggesting that your tulpa may actually want to be less independent. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sentience-what-constitutes-failure-to-create-a-tulpa-when-do-you-give-up?pid=166264#pid166264

 

There is always the assumption that tulpas want full independence as much as the host wants it. What if that is not the case?

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The less independent the tulpa the more its will is simply the host's will, so that's a bit of an oxymoron. But I'm sure it's how you describe yourself.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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What kind of dependence does your suggestion entail? What exactly is "being dependent", as surely all tulpae are dependent on their host?

 

[unknown blend of many] Shock essentially meant, from your point of view, Tay feels quite parrotted, but from Tay's point of view, would he feel the same with respect to you (e.g. knowing what you are going to say before you say it).

 

Also, I often find what I hear from Tay to feel strongly like parroting, but I'm just unsure about it all. I don't want to ever parrot him, but I don't know if I'm doing so or not. I know it can be beneficial, but that's only if you know that you're doing so. Is it true that it's only ever parroting if it's a conscious decision to do so?

 

It sounds like, compared to full parroting, Tay has some independence from you because while it feels like he is strongly parrotted, you are not actively doing so. It sounds like he is still strongly influenced by you and he is predictable, but he has broken away from your direct will to some degree. The trick now is to break away from indirect will.

 

I feel that I am heavily dependent on Tay due to the three years I've worked with him on his development. I think that tulpa dependence, so long as it's soft and not forced, along with the ability of the tulpa to do whatever they please, whenever, is essential, but that it also helps for a host and tulpa to be at least partially dependent on each other, as that strengthens the bond between them, not least between Tay and me.

 

It sounds like different definitions of "dependent" are being used. We could have been more specific. Sorry about that.

 

As for your philosophy, we think that that is a good one to take.

 

Finally, I'll just make note that whenever I ask him a question that only he would know, e.g. when he became vocal, or exactly when he appeared, it's always me with the answer, and it's avoiding my own question. This just messes with me more, as if Tay answered, he would most likely know full well. However, the fact that he can't answer that question makes me question his sentience or even sometimes his existence further...

 

There are some things to consider. There are many independences that often get mushed together in concept and discussion. There is independence from your will, independence from your knowledge, independence from your emotions, independence from your personality, etc. If Tay is not independent from your knowledge, emotions, etc., then he would have a hard time answering your question even if he was fully independent of your will. Luckily, many of these can be worked on in the same way. For many, interacting with people outside of the host, even if it starts out as parrotted proxying, can lead to independence on many fronts.

Tri = {V, O, G}, Ice and Frostbite and Breach (all formerly Hail), and others

System Name: Fall Family

Former Username: hail_fall

Contributor and administrator on a supplementary tulpamancy resource and associated forum, Tulpa.io and Tulpa.io/discuss/.

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Hey, friend. As someone who joined like, sixteen days before you, and had nothing but trouble for years, you have my deepest sympathies, because I know where you're coming from.

 

The best I can give, and to touch on skepticism like Lumi, is that some of us can't be afforded any skepticism. Not even healthy skepticism. I've always been relatively skeptical, not even a hardcore skeptic, but any amount at all in the three years I've been doing this has absolutely ruined my progress, because historically, it's only taken me the smallest instance of contemplation on whether or not something was me or whatever tupper I've had at the time to become incredibly discouraged, and wonder what was wrong with me and my progress. And then it would all crumble from there, because it's a slippery slope. I've only recently reached the kind of progress I'm happy with because I've been actively forcing any doubt out of my system, and even then, if ever the day comes where I'm feeling juust the right kind of depressed, and have any kind of doubts, I'm likely to do serious damage to my belief as well.

 

If you truly doubt that Tay is speaking to you, then honestly? He very-well may not be. It's all a mind-game, and a very, very time-consuming one at that. My personal advice, and you definitely don't have to pay me any mind if you'd rather not, is to take a step back, force yourself into a state of positivity, and take yourself back to square one. Which might seem like terrible advice, but I don't know, I'm just shooting out what's helped for me. Leaving behind all of the negative baggage from what you might be perceiving to be a failed attempt, and wasted time, is, I feel, one of the most important steps whatever you do, because that's how you move forward. And I know it's easier said than done, but again, it's all a mind-game. Like most people will tell you, or anyone else this far in, three years is probably too long to be having such severe doubts, so you don't exactly have much to lose, I guess?

 

Something Lumi mentioned which I feel is very much true, is "As you literally experience the feeling of "maybe it's actually my tulpa", your brain starts making connections related to your tulpa and eventually the way they talk stops sounding like the way you talk." I'm not exactly far into vocality, and in-fact haven't been worrying much at all about it even despite being cautiously optimistic about some words I think my tupper has said, but I can't stress enough that even if you're unsure, finding a way to convince yourself that it's not always you leads to having these small moments every once in a while, where your tupper is doing these things, and instead of immediately becoming frightened that it's just you, you think "Huh, well I'm not sure if that was me or not". And that's an important stepping stone, because being neutrally uncertain better leads to moments where it's more like "Okay, that definitely wasn't me", as opposed to thinking "I'm pretty sure that was me, but I don't want to think too much on it" or whatever.

 

I'm rambling by this point, this thing probably reads confusingly, sorry for that, it's late (early?)

 

At the end of the day, you're going to have to make conscious changes to the way you go about this. There's no way around it. If you can't do that, if you just keep doubting and can't do anything but, if you need to be convinced before you're willing to make the changes, then you're probably not going anywhere no matter how long you do this. Sucks to say as much as it does to hear, but take it from a professional giver-upper.

If you only knew what all this cost - What she gave up, just to save her art

 

What is fashion, fashion without love? Like an odradek, a spool without purpose

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