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[Switching] So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.
SevensSystem Offline
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#1
 
So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

Author's Introduction
Hello, forums. First, I am not active here a lot. You might be wondering why someone who seems so new might be writing a guide. Let me introduce myself. I am Seven, one of a system of six. We are a DID system of four, with two tulpas. We can't 'possess', because all we have is switching. We have been quite reckless in how we have handled tulpas, because we are already used to headmates/alters. A friend had a want to switch, and we shared what was learned from the recklessness, and that might help a few of you out. That said, let us begin, shall we?

State of the Tulpa
This is the first bit I firmly believe most have wrong. You spent time forcing, they became active, you both talked about switching. If you're to this point, first thing holding people back is preconceived notions and perceived limitations. We have had similar results with both of our tulpas, and know that most of what people say they can or cannot do falls in line with what they are told they can or cannot do. If you ignore all that, they can do a whole lot more than you think they can.

People talk about the required forcing, weakening if you don't strengthening if you do, fading, and other rubbish with tulpas. Why rubbish? It is. Once they exist, their existence is as much, if not more, on them than the host. Our Kara, when she became who she is, we wanted her to fade. She got stubborn, and only calmed down once we accepted her. Many say you need to maintenance force, and I firmly believe that's only true if they believe it to be true. Neither of our tulpas believe it, we don't force them, and they are as much of us as the rest with no signs of going away.

So first step is breaking free of the notions and limitations and them realizing they have control over their own destiny and have every right as you to exist.

Losing Control
You want to switch? You're the host? You have the easy job. Let go. That's all. You know what's going to stop you? I can tell you. Trust. Ever see that trust exercise where you cross your arms, and fall back into your partner's hands? Trade hands with mind. You simply let go and let yourself relax and fall back into your own mind.

Want some tips to get started if you're having problems? Don't tweak out on caffiene before you begin trying. Avoid the sugar. Put on some relaxing music, and I don't mean 300bpm techno. Your first switching experiences will likely be with you still partly there, so don't expect to drop completely out before they take control, you just need to relax enough they can. It is a lot easier than it sounds. Once you repeat it a few times, and as they get better and better control, you'll learn how it feels and be able to fall farther and farther out.

To expand on this just a little bit, and make it absolutely clear.. some think it requires total dissociation from the body to achieve switching. Whoever told you that probably doesn't know how to switch, or you're reading a guide by someone who doesn't do it. You can switch perfectly fine into a backseat role by simply relaxing. You aren't dissociated, you are still there, but so are they. No need to get entirely out, just relax and let them control. Entirely out will come with time.

So step two is simply learning to relax.

Taking Control
This one is for the tulpa. You have the hard job. Odds are, your host has drilled into you that they must force you to exist or you'll stop. That you must go through months or years of rigorous training to be able to switch. That you must be given permission, forced enough, or yada yada yada. Screw all that, it's a lie.

Do you exist now? If the answer is yes, from our experiences, and from your answer, that means you exist. Your host would say they exist. Puts you on a pretty equal playing field. The only one that matters anyway. All those things that others say limit you, or you must do before, or whatever else? Toss them out the window. The only two factors that matter before being able to switch are: do you want to switch in, and does the host want to switch out. That is all. There are no other limitations.

Do note, it really only takes one of those to cause things to happen. If they want to switch out and you don't want to switch in, the body might end up grasping at straws and forcing it to happen for you. Flip side, if you decide you want to, and they don't, things can get a bit blendy.

Really though, it just comes down to a matter of doing. Not wanting to do, not thinking about doing, nothing about the lead up. That is where most get it wrong. There is no need for lead up to the act of taking control. You just need to take control. If you want to switch and host wants to switch then they just need to relax and you need to step up to the plate and do something.

You both getting ready to try? They not relaxing? Tell them to. Boss your host around. You need to realize, if you can't make a demand of your host and tell your host what to do to help the process in any way that benefits you taking control, then you're not taking control, and will find taking control of the body nearly impossible. See a pattern there? Take control!

So step three is realizing all it takes is taking control and not waiting to do so.

Baby Steps
The flesh can be weird. At first, your experiences will likely be short lived as the host panics. Adrenaline and other hormones affect things a bit, as you are sharing one fleshy, human body. Don't worry, you all will move past that as you both learn your roles better during switching.

Keep at it a while and it will become second nature to be able to tell your host you want to take a few hours in the evening to talk to your friends, or want to schedule a part time job three nights a week for yourself, or whatever it is you decide you want to do with your portion of life. Why do I say your portion of life?

Step four is accepting you are you and exist along side your host and do not rely on them.

The Actual Process
What? What are you expecting here? You already know it by now if you've been reading along. There isn't magic to it. You just need to go and do it and stop telling yourselves it needs to be worked up to.

Some Final Words
Whoever the tulpa is just needs to realize, once they exist, they no longer rely on the host for sustenance or permission for anything. The host created them, and in doing so, instilled in them every right to exist as they, themself has. In this realization, they are no longer a construct, but a being on equal footing to the host.

You both have as much right to life as the other. Once you both truly, deeply understand this, you will both be able to share life and the fleshy body you both inhabit. Do not let others tell you what your limitations are or what you can or cannot do. That is entirely up to you. Once you do learn to share and share alike, then do make sure you make time for each other to both enjoy what parts of life you enjoy most. You have a shared life experience, and both of you will need to learn to work out a schedule for who gets to do what in daily life now.

Additional Note
You may notice, once the process starts, the host can snatch back the body easily and quickly even when they do not want to. As reckless as we have been and offering control around and ignoring rules has still shown one single rule to be true. However it is not limited to just switching, but all of life. Whoever spends the most time in the body will be the most practiced with it, and generally win battles over who gets it. Can be a nuisance when you first get started, but as you both share time more and more, you will find yourselfs both practiced and on more equal footing.

-Seven and Aegis

Alters: Aegis, Seven, Belle, and Demetria with Tulpas: Kara and Enyo
(This post was last modified: 09-01-2014, 07:30 PM by SevensSystem.)
09-01-2014, 07:26 PM
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SevensSystem Offline
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#2
 
RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

(09-01-2014, 09:25 PM)Firir. Wrote: Seems like an unnecessarily wordy piece of crap that is exactly the same as all the other switching guides.

Actually, not really. The other two guides on switching on here stress the importance of dissociation before switching. That's the least of things that needs to happen. They have whole procedures for how to learn dissociation.

Switching is effectively the tulpa taking executive control of the body. They are primary on who is attached to senses, and determine what the body is going to do; while the host does not. This is the key thing most people don't realize. You switch control. State of host is entirely secondary.

You don't need to completely dissociate to switch. You can still be present, in a relaxed state. That is entirely different from any other guide I've seen, and entirely true. Just because you're present does not mean you need to be in executive control. What happens with the host after they lose primary control is entirely up to their own level of experience. Once the switch has occurred, there are numerous outcomes for the non-primary. Which one happens, if they "ride shotgun", or dissociate and "go inside", or just black out.. that does not matter. The key element in switching is the act of the tulpa taking primary control.

Again, the other two guides stress the importance of letting go, while mine says that is precisely the problem many face. They spend weeks, months, or years of effort on learning to let go when really, it is only a matter of working the tulpa up to the point of taking control.

If you would like an example of why I know pre-dissociation isn't required... ever have a tulpa force a switch to grab the wheel of a car travelling at 55mph to pull a hard right into a parking lot for coloring books? I had a few seconds notice as she rushed forward and managed to slow down so we didn't roll the car. Someone else took control from her because I was a bit shaken to do it and got us parked. Was it wanted? No. Did I spend effort trying to dissociate first? No. Did the tulpa do it anyway because of strong desire? Yes. As I said in the guide, and will say again, once they exist, they exist on equal footing. Every other guide I've read has made pre-dissociation a key element.

Alters: Aegis, Seven, Belle, and Demetria with Tulpas: Kara and Enyo
(This post was last modified: 09-01-2014, 10:45 PM by SevensSystem.)
09-01-2014, 10:28 PM
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Sands Offline
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#3
 
Default  RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

(09-01-2014, 10:28 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Actually, not really. The other two guides on switching on here stress the importance of dissociation before switching. That's the least of things that needs to happen. They have whole procedures for how to learn dissociation.

Dissociation can mean many things in this context. If by it you mean the host "letting go" then yes, that is actually not required and a tupper can take control if they choose to do so. However, as that can be an issue to many because it can make some hosts fight back, letting go is a suggested step to start learning possession as it gives a nice blank state for the tupper to test things on and the host relaxes and accepts it. It's true that it shouldn't be something that is absolutely required as in dangerous situations, either side can and probably will take control if they think they can make a difference. If they let "oh no but they didn't let go!!" stop them then that's just silly and it's true that we should tell them as much. But forcibly taking control all the time for no reason is kind of a dick move to do for both the tupper and the host.

If by dissociation you mean ignoring all senses, including things like sight and hearing? That one is 100% required for a switch because it's the entire definition of a switch.

(09-01-2014, 10:28 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Switching is effectively the tulpa taking executive control of the body. They are primary on who is attached to senses, and determine what the body is going to do; while the host does not. This is the key thing most people don't realize. You switch control. State of host is entirely secondary.

And this is where you go wrong. I don't know where you're coming from but I assume some non-tulpa community where these terms might mean different things, but what you are describing is possession. Look at these bolds to make sure you get it. As long as the host is looking, it's possession no matter what you want to call it. There are rampant redefinition problems in this community already, so don't add to the cancer by spreading lies and wrong definitions to terms that already exist. Why would you ever call full-body possession switching when that then leaves real switching without a term?

An actual switch has everything to do with the host's state. When the tupper controls is when it's possession assuming the host is still aware of their physical senses. A switch would mean the host ignores their physical senses completely and takes on imaginary ones which they then perceive like they're real. They don't pay attention to the physical world at all anymore and instead live in the mental world. While technically if a host is "unconscious" and the tupper is in control, it would kind of be a switch as the host is unaware... However, what most hosts want out of a switch is the ability to completely immerse themselves into the imaginary world and not have to worry about the physical side as the tupper is taking care of it, so switching is used to mean that instead of just being unconscious.

What will we redefine next? Kids are already calling full-body possession switching, so how about we redefine imposition next! I know, how about instead of actually having to see the tupper as something solid in the real world that could block our view, we just have to visualize with open eyes! Wow everyone is such an imposition guru already how great! Wow.

Please stop the redefinitions from spreading. Only you can do it before we're left with meaningless terms.

(09-01-2014, 10:28 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: You don't need to completely dissociate to switch. You can still be present, in a relaxed state. That is entirely different from any other guide I've seen, and entirely true.

~~Because your definition of a switch is wrong~~

----

Now, to the guide itself, might as well rate it now that I've started.

First of all, we already know your definition of a switch is incorrect. That's why many of the things you describe don't add up, because you are describing possession, not a switch. Wrong term usage is an automatic disapproval.

Secondly, your actual "guide". While you're right that honestly there's nothing more to these things than "just doing it" because there's no magical buttons in our brain to push and it's all just willpower and the right mindset... Guides are for those people who can't "just do it". If a person could just do it, they don't need your guide! If a guide can't help a person who can't "just do it", it's a worthless guide. While the idea is right, it's not guide material, so that too leads to a disapproval.

I will say this however. You have some very solid ideas that could be very helpful to get to the right mindset for possession. The mindset is extremely important and the way you talk about what the host and tupper should do might cause them to realize something very important that will help them to achieve what they want. It is some very solid tips material, but you are going to need to rewrite it.


So to summarize, I disapprove for now. Here is a checklist to get an approval from me and I hope the rest of the GAT agrees as the guide should not be approved in its current state.

-Change your wrong definition of switching to possession. That is clearly what you are talking about and while good possession skills can and often will lead to switching, you need to learn how to use the terms correctly first. The title should be changed as well. As long as these changes aren't made, we should not spread the redefinition plague.

-Axe the "guide" part. "Just do it" might really be the only thing you have to do, but it isn't guide material as guides should help the people who can't "just do it". Otherwise our guide section will be completely worthless. Think of writing this as a tip instead and you can definitely mention how all you really have to do it "just do it", but that you will offer some other hints anyways. Writing a non-symbolic possession guide that walks you through the steps is a very daunting task, so no one would blame you for that.

-Stop thinking you are so right when you have your terms wrong and are, actually, completely wrong. You just look silly. Write this with a more neutral tone instead of bashing the other guides, as your tips could and perhaps should be used with other guides. That way you are more helpful than filling the heads of the other hosts and tuppers with lies and redefinitions.


I think you can write a really solid tip thread about possession and I hope you will listen to me instead of just getting mad. Redefinitions are a huge problem, but you have some really good things said here about the mindset the host and tupper should have for possession – and hey, maybe even real switching, but it has less about that than possession. I know you can do it, mate.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
09-02-2014, 12:16 PM
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GGMethos Offline
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#4
 
RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

This guide is awful. I'll try to be polite when I say this but there is no real "guide" part of this. I don't even think I will approve this for tips and tricks either. There is not enough real content in here that is worthwhile or hasn't been said at least a hundred times before. I can't find a single redeeming factor about this post at all. I'm sorry.

"Assert the supremacy of your Imaginal acts over facts and put all things in subjection to them... Nothing can take it from but your failure to persist in imagining the ideal realized."

-Neville Goddard
09-03-2014, 05:56 AM
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schlondark Offline
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#5
 
RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

I'll have to agree with both Methos and Sands on this one, it seems to be all flash and no substance.
09-03-2014, 06:02 AM
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SevensSystem Offline
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#6
 
RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

Yes, the guide uses what the community deems possession as a stepping stone. It does seem I redefine switching to include possession, and I do. *gasp!* So many spend so long working on the simple dissociation, forget complex dissociation, and never even work once on getting the tulpa to try taking control. They spend so much time telling them it requires so much effort and whatever, they never get past that. The guide isn't written for someone who just learned vocality, it is written for someone who has made the conscious decision with their tulpa they want to switch.

It is much harder to dissociate when there isn't anything there taking the space. I reorder the primary two requirements of a switch around that fact. Host out, tulpa in. That's how all the guides are written. Not mine. Tulpa in, host out. Once you have the tulpa in, and taking space, THEN work on getting host out. You won't have the body grasping for straws and holding someone in. It is significantly easier to dissociate when someone else has the body.

The way it is written it does cover that fact, but also doesn't. It's written in plain language around the other focal point of the tulpa taking control. This entire community keeps telling their tulpas that maintenence forcing, requesting permission, and in pretty much every way, they are a second class consciousness. With that mindset, most tulpas will never have the gall to try and put forth the effort to take control. For those, it WOULD take near or total dissociation for the tulpa to achieve switch. Again, is it significantly easier than they think to do so, they just need to want to. Once they are, we are back to: then host learns to dissociate. Once you get past the mindset this community drills into you, and get both of you in, the host can get out a LOT easier, leaving the tulpa by themself. *gasp!* Wait! That IS the definition of a switch.

There are steps, a progression plan, and other key aspects of a guide. It is written such that you cannot easily pick up on them. This was done entirely on purpose. This is only one place I have shared this guide. I have shared it with a few private who have been struggling. I have shared it on the irc community. It may go directly against the definitions and accepted knowledge, but that is the point, and while I understand you may want it laid out differently and reworded, I do not feel that is appropriate. I do not believe in any drastic changes for the simple fact that for those I have shared it with, it has been working.

Alters: Aegis, Seven, Belle, and Demetria with Tulpas: Kara and Enyo
(This post was last modified: 09-03-2014, 01:48 PM by SevensSystem.)
09-03-2014, 01:11 PM
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RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

Disclaimer: To anyone that doesn’t know what existentialism is:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+existentialism


This is the first guide submission in a long time that seems to emphasize on hard core existentialism (e.g. the tulpa acknowledging that as long as they exist, they can start thinking for themselves without being dependent solely on the host’s conscious thoughts and actions).

I agree with others that it has some zest to it, but there’s barely anything practical for people to apply into some methodology. It’s more of a conceptualization kind of entry, and its potential could be much greater if OP used some of the critique Sands and others made. Maybe entries like this could inspire a new suggestion for submitters to try and format their submissions to be consistent with the general overview with the tulpa.info wiki (but at the same time, not being so militant in following everything to absolute law).

What’s also interesting, and what also may be leading to the negative presumptions so far is that underlying foundations. It seems to have been going in the right direction with self-fulfilling prophecies (e.g., people who believe in certain ideologies make it true because they’re willing to be consistent in behaving and existing to sustain those beliefs). And maybe what makes this seem like an echo chamber to what could’ve been repeated hundreds of times in different ways is that the submission is trying to be as objective as it can (but not in all parts, which isn’t a bad thing, but will extend on that later on).

I feel this is the likely outcome of guide submissions that try to explain things in a non-symbolic way without having some use of metaphors/symbolism/etc. as a supplement (keyword being supplement). I’ll break the guide down to its parts, which I feel at least was good for the sake of readability.

OP Wrote:State of the Tulpa

So first step is breaking free of the notions and limitations and them realizing they have control over their own destiny and have every right as you to exist.

In other words, the first step in breaking free of a self-fulfilling prophecy is to go hardcore existentialism mode, and create a new one (with the same foundations). This would be a nice introduction to the later parts, but I have a feeling this is an imaginary populace you’re creating where you feel they’re dogmatic to the point where if someone doesn’t follow their methods, than their tulpas’ existence will be stagnated. Maybe if the community was still in the mentality in 2012 with the random fears and paranoia, this submission would’ve been one of many that would break free of those limitations you speak of.

But I hardly see anything where people are consistently militant on saying things like:

- “If you sleep while forcing, their existence will be affected in a negative way”

- “Don’t use a black void as your wonderland, otherwise, your tulpa is going to get sucked in, and forgotten forever.”

- “If you’re not working on personality for at least 45 hours, you already done messed up the process, and have to start from scratch.”

This is where I feel you start defending your submission, and the comparative analysis of other guides (that seem to be of lesser value, but still of value nonetheless, but trying to make your submission as the one that can salvage all the hardships with tulpas and hosts). Maybe you were trying to prime the reader, especially newcomers, to realize that they shouldn’t constrain themselves so militantly on guide submissions of what to do, and what no to do.

But it seemed like you were doing it in a manner like a P90x boot camp coach would do. I feel this is the part where Sands mentioned to be neutral in general could be so much better if you’re clearly trying to suggest to others to have their tulpas’ potential be analogous to a blank canvas; where they draw in their own path, and persevering despite of whatever discrepancies and distortions may occur, because they learn that embracing that is what will help shape them into what they feel their existence can be fitted in, i.e., existentialism.

There’s nothing wrong with the promotion of tulpas creating personal significance for themselves, it’s just that you could really go for a more neutral approach. And a simple concept to be neutral from this is to simply refrain from mentioning an imaginary populace (e.g. “People talk about the required forcing”) that seems to be so dominant to tell others that their ways are righteous and just.

Just like how you’re making the guide personal, format this concept in a way where the host knows this is between them and their tulpas, and not the faults of others. I understand that people can get misinformed because of accessing other people’s opinions, but just like the existentialism you’re promoting in this guide submission, those people’s ideology (imaginary or an actual audience) don’t have to really matter as absolute law; because all that matters is having one’s tulpa exist in a way where they’re not tied down by the preconceptions and doubts of the “host,” not just “other people.”

It’s like saying:

“Hey, you’re my companion, and I know you can create personal significance for yourself. I’m here to help in any way I can to contribute to that development, and I know that you can exist in a way where you’re not fearful of my doubts simply because you know how to react neutrally so they don’t change what you feel is the schemata of your selfhood.”

Instead of:

“Hey, those people that tell you that you have to be a certain role as tulpa? Yeah, fuck them all, because you know why? YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT TULPA, WHO DON’T NEED NO HOST.”


Although the end result of both can be similar, the ideas and judgment behind them will be clearly different. The initial perspective would be more suitable because that may help a tulpa build that ability to take great pains to understand views completely different, and even unorthodox to the host and tulpa. The latter perspective seems to block that out by gravitating on the faults of others, and masking the doubts and faults of the hosts and tulpas; thinking they’re going for the right direction, but it only leads to potentially being dogmatic, and not understanding of other perspectives.

I know you’re wanting a tulpa to be able to think for themselves, but I personally feel things go hand in hand. In other words, there are times where the host can lend strength to their tulpas in their “darkest” hours, and vice versa. Especially if they’re sharing the same mind, learning to coexist rather than being so militantly in implicit dichotomy might be more suitable for most. A tulpa can still be that individual that has their own unique and personal schemata of philosophies and such without having to have an upbringing that promotes blocking things out from their peers beyond their hosts’ mind (e.g. people like us you meet in tulpa-related communities).

OP Wrote:Losing Control

I have nothing to say for this, since it’s a general concept people integrate to ease themselves into getting used to the sensations of a switch.

OP Wrote:Taking Control

I hardly doubt the tulpa is the one that has the hard job. Maybe that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy created where the host imagines themselves as having it easy; waiting for their companion to come with unwavering faith while their tulpa has to go from rags to riches just to reach that same level of “equality” you mentioned in the previous part. This is where I felt you kind of contradicted yourself, at least fundamentally, but I do get what you’re trying to get at. And like Sands and others mentioned already, this is where you’re referring to other people, and other guide submissions you probably feel aren’t suitable for the intention you’re going for.

I emphasize greatly on how useful it is to encourage one’s tulpa to take great pains to understand the viewpoints of others. This is where your submission is slowly crumbling down to a type of dogma. And I feel that absolving the potential of other guide submissions (and being overly critical sometimes with nothing to build upon that) is really bad when this submission needs those for supplementary insight, and much more.

In other words, newcomers, and people of all types are bound to collect insight from other submissions than your own to have a cumulative and supplementary base to create their own. If they build this disposition to block out the rest, its taking existentialism’s major foundation to the extreme, i.e., this is way too hardcore. The other direction they can take is to consider the same existentialist type of philosophy, but knowing that interacting with others, and researching other methods can create a useful base to derive from; especially if you’re emphasizing on a tulpa’s potential like a blank canvas that can be molded, carved, and drawn in any direction and shape.

And again, instead of saying “the stuff people say that’s clearly wrong,” they can easily learn how to filter out unnecessary thoughts, and focus on the task at hand in a more neutral way. Again, if you’re wanting to go for that independence route so much, you’d realize that a tulpa that realizes their own actions affects how they’ll be in the future instead of using “people” as a scapegoat to ignore any potential faults and mistakes they could learn from.

It’s like glossing their mistakes, and potentially having grandiose delusions that they can prosper without the need of trial-and-error of others, and what they may have to go through themselves to develop experiential learning.

As for the other parts, no need for me to extend on them since they’re less personal and dogmatic.


RECAP:

Pros:

- You want to emphasize on the existentialism, and how a tulpa should think for themselves to create their own personal significance. Good, nothing wrong with that, since I’m sure people want to do that in some way.

- You have a decent structure on thoughts and topics you want to cover. Good, it’s not going from one place to the next for too long.


Cons:

- Although you promote independence for a tulpa, you’re doing it in a way where they’ll have an upbringing that blocks out the opinions of others. This creates a disposition where the tulpa may not have the ability to take great pains to understand the viewpoints of others, despite of their differences. When I say “great pains,” I simply mean taking great effort to understand. Encouraging a tulpa to do that so they can build a greater cumulative base of knowledge and insight from others, their host, and themselves can probably make things easier, i.e., they work smarter, not harder.

- I understand there may be people that still have that disposition (e.g. “If you sleep while forcing, they’re going to dissipate!”) and you’re wanting to clear those doubts out of their heads, but you can do it in a way to be more neutral. I hardly think, at least how the trend is going now from my own opinions, that there’s an audience so large that would spew dogma of what one ought, and not to do with their tulpas. If there’s any, they’re probably extremists isolated in their own circlejerks, as I’m sure most that absolve themselves from this community and others do. This guide submission is literally attacking people that probably won’t have an overwhelming existence on here, which is more incentive to format things a bit more neutrally.



- This is probably the biggest con I’ll mention. You do a small comparative analysis of other guide submissions that have a methodology behind switching and possession, and seem to imply that your methodology actually has a methodology when it’s really more of explaining the philosophy as to why one would attempt these things in the first place (e.g. to exist and create personal significance with their companions). Those other submissions are actually just as useful (or more useful), and I see this submission as a supplement to that because it’s like a conceptualization guide rather than a “how-to.” If you were more neutral, and possibly linked those other guide submissions, or your own method, this could’ve had potential as tips and tricks.

I know several guide submissions that do that recognition of other submissions quite well (e.g. https://docs.google.com/document/d/17iiF...c1wiY/edit ) rather trying to block them out as some kind of curse or restriction to one’s conquest of knowledge.

I disapprove, but I do know this submission has potential because all it really needs is a little formatting, and taking into consideration of things Sands and others have stated already.


(This post was last modified: 09-03-2014, 02:26 PM by Linkzelda.)
09-03-2014, 02:18 PM
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waffles Offline
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#8
 
RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

The bad things first. These are mentioned above so I'll be brief:

First and foremost, this really is "Just do it." Here, I've quoted you where you do this:

(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: You want to switch? You're the host? You have the easy job. Let go. That's all. You know what's going to stop you? I can tell you. Trust. Ever see that trust exercise where you cross your arms, and fall back into your partner's hands? Trade hands with mind. You simply let go and let yourself relax and fall back into your own mind.
(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Really though, it just comes down to a matter of doing. Not wanting to do, not thinking about doing, nothing about the lead up. That is where most get it wrong. There is no need for lead up to the act of taking control. You just need to take control. If you want to switch and host wants to switch then they just need to relax and you need to step up to the plate and do something.
(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: The Actual Process
What? What are you expecting here? You already know it by now if you've been reading along. There isn't magic to it. You just need to go and do it and stop telling yourselves it needs to be worked up to.

"Just going and doing it" is fine. It's good advice. I'd recommend everyone try "just doing it" before they decide that they can't "just do it". The issue here is that, like Sands said, guides are here for people who can't "just do it". Telling them that they can may possibly make it so, but it seems to me like that won't be most of the people reading this guide. It's not a useful guide for those who can't "just do it", because they can't or don't know how to "just do it" when you tell them to. This submission isn't just the methodology, but since telling people how to switch is going to be the core of this if it's a guide, it's something you definitely need to consider. If you actually don't have anything to say about methodology, then that's fine; you can reformat the article and we'd probably put it in Tips if you didn't add anything new.


Second, definitions definitions.

(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: To expand on this just a little bit, and make it absolutely clear.. some think it requires total dissociation from the body to achieve switching. Whoever told you that probably doesn't know how to switch, or you're reading a guide by someone who doesn't do it. You can switch perfectly fine into a backseat role by simply relaxing. You aren't dissociated, you are still there, but so are they. No need to get entirely out, just relax and let them control. Entirely out will come with time.
(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: You don't need to completely dissociate to switch. You can still be present, in a relaxed state. That is entirely different from any other guide I've seen, and entirely true. Just because you're present does not mean you need to be in executive control. What happens with the host after they lose primary control is entirely up to their own level of experience. Once the switch has occurred, there are numerous outcomes for the non-primary. Which one happens, if they "ride shotgun", or dissociate and "go inside", or just black out.. that does not matter. The key element in switching is the act of the tulpa taking primary control.
(09-01-2014, 07:26 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Yes, the guide uses what the community deems possession as a stepping stone. It does seem I redefine switching to include possession, and I do. *gasp!* So many spend so long working on the simple dissociation, forget complex dissociation, and never even work once on getting the tulpa to try taking control.

Alright, well, saying that people don't have to dissociate fully before anything can happen is one thing. Redefining switching as an end goal is another. If you're redefining a goal to make it easier, you're not helping readers to switch. You're helping them to 'switch', which is kind of misleading. But it seems more like you could resolve this with a bit of clarification, like
"In the endgame you'll be fully dissociated, but as an intermediate step just taking the backseat is fine".



I have to dissent with a few things mentioned above though.

Sands and Linkzelda: I think the tone is fine. It seems grating because of what seems to us a lack of content. Perhaps also because of a lack of the standard disclaimer (that's "This guide reflects my views and not necessarily those of..."), and while it might be nice to see that I won't ask for it because readers should really have that in mind already. At least if they're already at switching, they will perhaps have read enough to know that.

Linkzelda: There do seem to be ideas here not mentioned in the other guides on this forum.
(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Host out, tulpa in. That's how all the guides are written. Not mine. Tulpa in, host out.
This is actually true looking at Fuliam's guide. Yes, this forum direly needs a good switching guide if this sort of stuff doesn't get mentioned.



So all in all I disapprove for now because of "just do it" and weird term usage, but I'd sure approve for Tips if you stripped away the redundant stuff and Guides if you added more. Like Sands I think there is some good stuff in here.
09-03-2014, 08:03 PM
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Sands Offline
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#9
 
Default  RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

Wow this is going to be long.


(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: Yes, the guide uses what the community deems possession as a stepping stone. It does seem I redefine switching to include possession, and I do.

If you keep your redefinitions, it never will be approved. And in fact, you are hurting the community by redefining it and making newcomers think something means something it doesn't. By moving the goalposts you make switch mean possession and soon everyone will claim they can "switch" when they actually can't. If you don't think that's a problem, I'm a bit worried.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: The guide isn't written for someone who just learned vocality, it is written for someone who has made the conscious decision with their tulpa they want to switch.

And how many switching guides actually are written for someone who just got a vocal tulpa? Hell, how many possession guides are written for someone who just got a vocal tulpa? Don't know about you, but the many I have read seem to make it pretty clear that you require some trust between the both of you to get comfortable with this. It's teamwork, you know.

PS. Your guide barely talks about actual switching. It mostly talks of possession which you are implying is switching. You must make it clear what is possession and what is switching. Tulpa in control is possession, host not feeling physical senses and instead feeling only imaginary ones really strongly is switching.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: I reorder the primary two requirements of a switch around that fact. Host out, tulpa in. That's how all the guides are written. Not mine. Tulpa in, host out. Once you have the tulpa in, and taking space, THEN work on getting host out.

I have no issues with you telling people to try it the other way. However, your way is not the 100% method that will work for everyone and to some, your method will be harder. For others, it will be easier. This is why I wish you would actually fix this into a proper tip so that you can share it with others. Do remember that it's not the only way, though. Just another way. Everything about tulpas is really personal and the only right way is the way that works for them.


(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: You won't have the body grasping for straws and holding someone in.

I'm sorry but I don't think this body is some mysterious entity that would try to grasp and hold something in. This is something mental. It's because of your own mindset that you cannot let go. And yes, both tulpas and hosts can think they can't do it, which will hold them down. They need to realize that the only thing doing that is themselves, not some other magical special entity.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: It is significantly easier to dissociate when someone else has the body.

This, however, is right on – and I don't think anyone is trying to say this isn't the case, at least I haven't. After all, this is basically a suggested way to switch. And keep in mind we don't just mean "tulpa is in control" because that is not a switch, it's possession. I even made an image detailing what I have found based on my experiences and I do suggest that people get good at possession to help them to achieve a switch. There seems to be some natural dissociation and loss of feeling when you don't have to pay so much attention to the body, which helps you to ignore all the senses to achieve a true switch.

However, your guide either implies a switch will just happen right away when you do this or even that just by having the tupper possess, you are switching. Which is wrong – though of course, some who can naturally slip into their wonderland and feel it could probably do an actual switch almost right away. But that isn't the norm, so you shouldn't assume it is if you have such an ability. You need to make sure that what you are telling people to do first is possession which can lead to a switch – which in turn means that the host ignores everything and takes on imaginary senses. A tulpa can be fully in control even when "just" possessing, switching is not necessary. If you are saying that switching is required... Well guess what, the next thing you say makes you a hypocrite.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: This entire community keeps telling their tulpas that maintenence forcing, requesting permission, and in pretty much every way, they are a second class consciousness.

Does it really? Maybe we have regressed back to this point – and there are many separate communities with different beliefs about this – but I remember the time when we finally got rid of these preconceptions for the most part and saw tuppers as equals. When did we go wrong if these idiotic beliefs are back to being the norm? I'll blame Reddit where this kind of stuff got out of hand and where they at least at some point thought a roleplaying character was a full-blown tulpa.

However, requesting permission is something both the host and tupper should do just to not be rude. Not only could suddenly taking control lead into dangerous situations, it is at the very least very rude if the other party is in the middle of something. When two people share one body, you need to be thoughtful of the other as well and be polite. Asking if you can do something isn't wrong – it's polite and means you respect the other one.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: For those, it WOULD take near or total dissociation for the tulpa to achieve switch.

The tulpa does not achieve a switch. This is where you are using your terms wrong again. It's the host's job to switch, a tulpa takes control and possesses. If you want to be equal and really anal, sure, you could say that normally the host possesses when they are in control while the tulpa is switching if they do not pay any attention to the physical senses. But as it is the norm for many, possession is used to mean the tulpa taking control of the body while switching means the host adopting the similar kind of state many tulpas tend to have "normally", ignoring physical senses and experiencing the imaginary wonderland as a real place.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: ...the host can get out a LOT easier, leaving the tulpa by themself. *gasp!* Wait! That IS the definition of a switch.

An awfully narrow definition that doesn't explain it fully: the host must ignore the physical senses and perceive imaginary senses as real while the tulpa is in control.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: There are steps, a progression plan, and other key aspects of a guide. It is written such that you cannot easily pick up on them. This was done entirely on purpose.

Sorry, but "just do it" =/= totally hidden meaning guise you're not smart enough to notice it =/= a proper guide we can accept.

(09-03-2014, 01:11 PM)SevensSystem Wrote: It may go directly against the definitions and accepted knowledge, but that is the point, and while I understand you may want it laid out differently and reworded, I do not feel that is appropriate. I do not believe in any drastic changes for the simple fact that for those I have shared it with, it has been working.

Redefinitions are not good and you should not be proud to be doing it. And unless you are also willing to redefine imposition to mean open-eyed visualization, seems a bit hypocritical to me. Also, just because I doodle something and show it to my mom who thinks it's great doesn't mean what I drew is perfect masterpiece. You might want to think about that.

The truth is, anything can and will help someone. No matter how stupid something someone writes is, it will help at least one person struggling somewhere. However, we can't accept every guide or tip or otherwise our work is meaningless and the guide section would be just as messy as before. There are certain standards that have to be met, which your guide doesn't meet as you can see if you read the comments by other GAT members. Don't think what you write is perfect, a pure piece of gold. It rarely is. Others will notice mistakes you haven't, because you are automatically biased towards your own work after having stared at it for so long. And even being 100% certain that you are totally completely right is a bit silly, as no one can ever know everything about something. We have clearly mentioned what has to be changed for this to get approved – and at the current rate you're going, it's not going to be approved.

It's your choice. Either you leave it as is and watch it be stuck in the purgatory of submissions as long as you refuse to make changes. Or you change it into something that doesn't redefine terms and actually becomes truly helpful and up to standards. You're not alone if you want to make it better, we're all here to help you. If it doesn't get approved, there is only one person you can blame. You have something really good in what you wrote, honestly. Some really solid tips that others should hear. However, in its current state, it cannot be accepted – but I want this to be accepted. When you're willing to work on it, I try to help you as much as I can.


Oh and waffles, their tone is an issue when they are all "MY way is the only right way, the rest of these guides are wrong and won't work!!!". That can poison the mind of some and make them avoid things that might actually work for them better than what this guy offers. Otherwise I have no issue with it as strong writing is a-okay in my eyes. I just don't accept trying to ruin the other guides because he thinks his way is oh-so-much better.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)
09-03-2014, 10:10 PM
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Anonymous
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#10
 
Default  RE: So you wanna switch? Do you, really? Might be able to help that.

First off, this is a possession guide. The only time you even touch on switching is when you mention
> You simply let go and let yourself relax and fall back into your own mind.

Possession involves taking control of the body, while the host is still basically mentally paying attention to the senses. When the host can block out the physical senses and take on imaginary senses, that is switching. Be it through an out of body experience, being in the wonderland, or blacking out. I realize you are DID and may be familiar with other terms, but in our community switching means something different than what you are saying here.

>some think it requires total dissociation from the body to achieve switching.
That is essentially what switching is. Possession does not require total dissociation, but when you grow more and more dissociated, you are coming closer and closer to what we call a switch.

> first thing holding people back is preconceived notions and perceived limitations.
It is good that you recognize this, but you also hold people back or otherwise confuse people with your own preconceived notions.
> We have had similar results with both of our tulpas, and know that most of what people say they can or cannot do falls in line with what they are told they can or cannot do. If you ignore all that, they can do a whole lot more than you think they can.
You're going off your own experience, which is fine, care to go on? Were you told what you could do, and that frontloading of expectation led you to think yourself capable of less than you were? You do realize that you are telling people that people to ignore others, but in doing so are telling them that listening to you is correct?
> first step is breaking free of the notions and limitations
How about "First step is breaking free of notions and limitations, my own notions included. There is a term for this, it is called, "beginner's mind"." It refers to having an attitude of openness, eagerness, and lack of preconceptions when studying a subject, even when studying at an advanced level, just as a beginner in that subject would. "[1]

> and them realizing they have control over their own destiny and have every right as you to exist.
This is your philosophy, and need not apply to possession. That is for individual hosts and tuppers to decide, it is irrelevant to the learning of possession.
> In this realization, they are no longer a construct, but a being on equal footing to the host.
This varies per host. It is not true for everyone nor need it be true.

>So step two is simply learning to relax.
Could bear going into further details on how to relax. Doing so isn't as simple for everyone. A good additional tip would be to lay down, wherever is comfortable.

>The only two factors that matter before being able to switch are: do you want to switch in, and does the host want to switch out. That is all. There are no other limitations.
>Really though, it just comes down to a matter of doing. Not wanting to do, not thinking about doing, nothing about the lead up. That is where most get it wrong. There is no need for lead up to the act of taking control. You just need to take control. If you want to switch and host wants to switch then they just need to relax and you need to step up to the plate and do something.
These two sections from 'Taking Control' are fine, but the section about bossing the host around, making demands, those things aren't as relevant for possessing the body. Ordering someone to relax is a paradox of sorts, it is something that cannot necessarily be brute forced, and could even make the host less relaxed. Again, some people have difficulties relaxing for whatever their reasons may be. That is something that bears looking at the root of the problem, or experimenting with what works, for all it is not as simple as their tulpa demanding they relax.

>At first, your experiences will likely be short lived as the host panics. Adrenaline and other hormones affect things a bit, as you are sharing one fleshy, human body. Don't worry, you all will move past that as you both learn your roles better during switching.

This whole paragraph can be removed, you go out of your way to frontload people into expecting their experience will be shortened, when my first possession experience lasted hours just fine. You're causing people to expect less.


>You both have as much right to life as the other. Once you both truly, deeply understand this, you will both be able to share life and the fleshy body you both inhabit.

>Do not let others tell you what your limitations are or what you can or cannot do. That is entirely up to you.
You contradict yourself right there. Imposing upon people your own specific philosophy, and then telling them to do whatever they want. Which one is it? Is it both? Are you trying to say 'here is my idea, but I do not know it to be right and you may form your own idea, no pressure.' Please do make this clear.
Also you restate what you said about rights to exist from an earlier section, I am wondering if you did that on purpose, merely happened to think of saying this without realizing you had already said it, or what.
>and generally win battles over who gets it. (the body)
This part could be removed. You're giving people the idea that they might need to battle over their own body. At least that is the impression I get from that point. This undermines your earlier point about trust.

Due to the very general nature of your guide, it would not fit in the guides forum, nor would it be an acceptable tip as it currently is.



[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin

Parable on beginner's mind
http://www.ironpalm.com/beginner.html
09-04-2014, 02:09 PM
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