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Rationalistic Guide to Vocality.


reguile
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Ahem. This isn't ABOUT what you say in the guide is what I said. Not what you don't say in the guide. Reading comprehension. Learn it.

 

When I say switching is the host and tulpa trading position that implies that the host is no longer in control of the body and the tulpa is. That is nearly equal to what you said.

 

Except missing everything about the ignoring senses part. Possession already is total body control for the tulpa if you can let go properly, which is basically the easiest way to start learning switching in the first place.

 

...that being the host just learning to so well "ignore activities" that they can go so far as to ignore the fact that they are controling the body, the tulpa still isn't independent.

 

Yeah, good luck controlling a body when you don't see what it sees and instead see an imaginay world with rainbow grass and giant butterflies.

 

Rational thinking. I think you should honestly remove that word from the title. How about you stop hanging out in the bad IRC channels where a tulpa means having a roleplaying character you cyber with, you have missed all the good stuff that would actually help you hear more stories and experiences. A rational man doesn't confine themselves to their own head and ideals, refusing to see anything else. Man, you sound like you're even more delusional than me.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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If you have justifications then put them in your guide. Anyway,

 

Parroting: If the core of tulpa is delusoin, and a person doesn't know/think that is true, that it's obvious that the fear of parroting will be a huge thing to start with. Because the tulpa just won't reply, a person will either go infinite time without a tulpa, or eventually reply to themselves, and undergo parroting fears, parroting acceptance, and moving on.

I can't follow your logic here. Why does not knowing that a tulpa is a delusion mean that "the tulpa just won't reply"? And anyway, you still haven't told us why you think a tulpa is a delusion, and, indeed, what that even means.

 

I just don't know what the other two paragraphs are supposed to mean.

 

 

However, by the only way I can say it could occur, that being the host just learning to so well "ignore activities" that they can go so far as to ignore the fact that they are controling the body, the tulpa still isn't independent.

Let's just get this clear. You're saying that the host ignores their control of the body so much that it is completely out of their awareness. And they can also be unconscious while controlling the body because that's how ignoring they are being.

 

Even if that were the case, you're still implying that a tulpa is independent. If the host really is that unaware of control through ignoring alone then that pretty much makes control an unconscious function anyway, because it's out of their awareness completely.

 

 

And i'll admit it does sound far-fetched to say that, but it also is far fetched to say that a host is able to do the things required to switch. Either way it's a particularly far fetched subject.

Things required to switch:

possession

bodily dissociation

 

The former we know happens because testimony, and the latter because it's pretty similar to out of body experiences or astral projection or what have you, at least in a broad sense.

 

Meanwhile, you need to assume that the host can ignore their control of the body to such an extent that they can control it even while unconscious, or while controlling an imaginary body and experiencing imaginary senses simultaneously. How are these equal in farfetchedness?

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First post:

 

I did misread that, but I also still do explain that I have experienced it enough to say that. And i'm so sorry I misread something like every other human being in existence does. I suppose it is yet another mark of you being so much greater than I, the peasant I am.

 

"Except missing everything about the ignoring senses part. Possession already is total body control for the tulpa if you can let go properly, which is basically the easiest way to start learning switching in the first place."

 

Except it is implied that if you really do switch places with a tulpa than you do ignore senses. This is what I have always understood the definition of switching to be, and when I ask if you have been able to truly switch and not know what the tulpa is doing it is pretty clear that I know that. My reason for asking what I did was to know if people saying they are switching but still somehow aware of the body in any form or fashion, because that doesn't line up with switching by definition.

 

"eah, good luck controlling a body when you don't see what it sees and instead see an imaginay world with rainbow grass and giant butterflies."

 

That's why I said it's far fetched. The host would have to be able to do things while simultaneously remember and think that they aren't doing things and aren't aware of what they are doing.

 

Again, however, it's also far-fetched to think that a person is creating a mind in less than a couple of years that can literally take over for the person who created it. A year or two is not long at all, and in terms of work-in work-out it is incredibly far fetched. Perhaps if it was something taking decades it would be more believable, although it would still be far fetched even then.

 

"Rational thinking. I think you should honestly remove that word from the title. How about you stop hanging out in the bad IRC channels where a tulpa means having a roleplaying character you cyber with, you have missed all the good stuff that would actually help you hear more stories and experiences. A rational man doesn't confine themselves to their own head and ideals, refusing to see anything else. Man, you sound like you're even more delusional than me."

 

I suppose you also dislike the reddit thread in that case. Only the forum is where there are true tulpa!

 

You keep on feeling better than people because of reasons. The only reason I don't use the forum often is because it's honestly more annoying to use than reddit, and lacks upvotes and downvotes.

 

Second post:

 

Done.

--

"Why does not knowing that a tulpa is a delusion mean that "the tulpa just won't reply""

 

Because if the tulpa is a delusion the tulpa can't reply.

 

You might find what I added to the guide to explain better, It's in the top of the second page.

---

"Let's just get this clear. You're saying that the host ignores their control of the body so much that it is completely out of their awareness."

 

I say it's far-fetched for a reason.

 

Let's also consider that you are saying that a person is capable of so well training their mind and creating a separate being in it that that being can be capable of taking total control of the human body within a single year. In many ways that is just as huge and just as amazing, and with even less basis for what i'm saying. There are hundreds of examples of people's minds tricking them into truly feeling and thinking really extraordinary things occurred when they didn't. It was a big thing in the 90's with so-called "repressed memories".

 

"And they can also be unconscious while controlling the body because that's how ignoring they are being."

 

You think someone would do that? just go on the internet and tell lies?

 

Unless you have personally been unconscious while a tulpa is doing things, and were able to find things like logs or activities with timestamps of a tulpa doing things, than I don't think you could make such a statement.

---

" If the host really is that unaware of control through ignoring alone then that pretty much makes control an unconscious function anyway, because it's out of their awareness completely. "

 

I am referring more to a "deciding to not remember" not a "not being aware" sort of situation. They do end up with the same result after all.

---

The former is not really such an extreme/out there thing, at least in comparison to having a tulpa which can speak to you.

 

"and the latter because it's pretty similar to out of body experiences or astral projection or what have you, at least in a broad sense."

 

Again, don't believe everything you hear on the internet. OBE's and AP are absolute bullshit at worst, and lucid dreaming/memory editing at best. There is a reason it's not considered in mainstream knowledge.

 

I'd say they are pretty equal in farfetchedness, as there is plenty/as much support for what I said as there is for what you are saying. See what I said earlier about the 90's.

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Except it is implied that if you really do switch places with a tulpa than you do ignore senses. This is what I have always understood the definition of switching to be, and when I ask if you have been able to truly switch and not know what the tulpa is doing it is pretty clear that I know that. My reason for asking what I did was to know if people saying they are switching but still somehow aware of the body in any form or fashion, because that doesn't line up with switching by definition.

 

It's obvious to you. It's not obvious to anyone else reading it because you don't say it. No one here can read your mind, so when you write guides, you gotta be sure you explain everything people need to know.

 

Switching never includes being aware of the body. If it does, it's possession and people are trying to redefine terms again to be cooler.

 

That's why I said it's far fetched. The host would have to be able to do things while simultaneously remember and think that they aren't doing things and aren't aware of what they are doing.

 

So if it's far-fetched because of all that yet people (myself included) have done it... Then could that possibly mean it's not what you think it is??? Sure, take weird shit people claim with a grain of salt, but I'll trust my own experiences here. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean others can't and all that jazz.

 

Again, however, it's also far-fetched to think that a person is creating a mind in less than a couple of years that can literally take over for the person who created it. A year or two is not long at all, and in terms of work-in work-out it is incredibly far fetched. Perhaps if it was something taking decades it would be more believable, although it would still be far fetched even then.

 

A year is nothing, sure. Though keep in mind it's a mind created in a year that has everything you have used a lifetime building. And shit, learning to move the body is pretty hard work for the tuppers, it's not some insta-poof of them suddenly being able to move. The actual switching part is a host skill, learning how to ignore the body's senses. Which also isn't the easiest thing to do.

 

I suppose you also dislike the reddit thread in that case. Only the forum is where there are true tulpa!

 

Majority of Reddit doesn't even seem to have tulpas considering they see everything you create in your mind a tulpa. So yes, the forums have much more actual tuppers around, ones that could at least fool us into thinking they're autonymous, sapient beings. Can't say the same for a roleplaying character I control.

 

and lacks upvotes and downvotes.

 

Ah yes, the worst system ever introduced. Sheep following popular opinions. Fitting.

 

OBE's and AP are absolute bullshit at worst, and lucid dreaming/memory editing at best.

 

Well no. Sure, it's not actual astral projecting nor are you actually out of your body, but I can see it being similar to switching. Just without the tulpa part which is sort of a required thing in our term to make things easy, but the basic idea is the same. Ignoring the body's physical senses, taking on imaginary ones which feel quite real because they're not being drowned out by the physical senses. It just would be something that happens accidentally to many people claiming to have them and perhaps to some, they are just lucid dreams. But it could happen when you are conscious, seeing that I have experienced switching myself. And it doesn't involve sleeping. I can see why someone would think something really happened, because it can so easily fool you when you have no idea what is happening. But it's just your imagination, but the mind is a pretty powerful tool when it comes to that. Awesome shit I tell you.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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"It's obvious to you. It's not obvious to anyone else reading it because you don't say it. No one here can read your mind, so when you write guides, you gotta be sure you explain everything people need to know.

 

Switching never includes being aware of the body. If it does, it's possession and people are trying to redefine terms again to be cooler."

 

I see what you mean by saying this, but that whole thing had nothing to do with the guide. You can see how I tried to define switching where I did so in the guide itself.

 

"So if it's far-fetched because of all that yet people (myself included) have done it... Then could that possibly mean it's not what you think it is??? Sure, take weird shit people claim with a grain of salt, but I'll trust my own experiences here. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean others can't and all that jazz."

 

It doesn't mean others cant, but saying that doesn't mean much at all. Both are explanations that assume it's possible, and both explanations are very far fetched.

 

--

A year is nothing, sure. Though keep in mind it's a mind created in a year that has everything you have used a lifetime building. And shit, learning to move the body is pretty hard work for the tuppers, it's not some insta-poof of them suddenly being able to move. The actual switching part is a host skill, learning how to ignore the body's senses. Which also isn't the easiest thing to do.

 

It's not so much the controlling the body on the tulpa's part that's important. It's the fact the host is so able to remove themselves from the body/mind in a year, and the fact that people have supposedly trained their minds so well in a single year that the brain can be "reprogrammed" to have the "you" no longer in control.

---

Majority of Reddit doesn't even seem to have tulpas considering they see everything you create in your mind a tulpa. So yes, the forums have much more actual tuppers around, ones that could at least fool us into thinking they're autonymous, sapient beings. Can't say the same for a roleplaying character I control.

 

It would be easy to make similar claims about the forums. Accusing any group of RP in that way is idiotic.

---

Ah yes, the worst system ever introduced. Sheep following popular opinions. Fitting.

 

And this guide approval system is doing what exactly?

---

The issue between AP and switching is that human beings have built in mechanisms to get in an AP state. Dreaming is near exactly what you describe. However, during dreams/that state the body is entirely paralyzed and cannot move. It isn't applicable to switching because the body does move during that time.

 

I am not saying switching is dreaming either.

---

"I can see why someone would think something really happened, because it can so easily fool you when you have no idea what is happening. But it's just your imagination, but the mind is a pretty powerful tool when it comes to that. Awesome shit I tell you."

 

Are you... agreeing with me here?

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It doesn't mean others cant, but saying that doesn't mean much at all. Both are explanations that assume it's possible, and both explanations are very far fetched.

 

Just as your explanations are when you try to explain why it would happen without an independent tupper, so...

 

It's not so much the controlling the body on the tulpa's part that's important. It's the fact the host is so able to remove themselves from the body/mind in a year, and the fact that people have supposedly trained their minds so well in a single year that the brain can be "reprogrammed" to have the "you" no longer in control.

 

Doing what now? Remove is a really bad choice of word here because nothing is leaving. Giving up control requires practice and to many hosts, that's the hardest part. Some keep trying and barely get any results. For some, that year doesn't get them anywhere. We all are unique here and some things are easier for others while others struggle with something else.

 

That said, it's something you have to understand to really get it I guess, to know how it feels or how it's done. But all it requires is a mind strong enough to think stupid things and go through with them. We barely know anything about the mind and how it works, but who knows, perhaps it would be possible (not with the current technology of course) to only take your mind from you and leave everything physical behind and put that mind in another body. It would sound pretty similar to me and I wouldn't say the idea is completely ridiculous yet. I'm not going to underestimate technology and what it can do in the future. But if it could do something like that, then doing the same with your own mind doesn't seem that impossible, either.

 

And nothing's really being reprogrammed here. You still exist. Do you think the brain cares what is using it? Actually that reminds me of the test where some other person control's another person's body with their mind, I'll try to look for that thing and post it if you reply.

 

It would be easy to make similar claims about the forums. Accusing any group of RP in that way is idiotic.

 

Except it's what many of them say, though? Making roleplaying characters and calling them tulpas, not even pretending that they are actually talking back?

 

And this guide approval system is doing what exactly?

 

Keeps bad guides such as yours from being approved. It's still disapproved by the way.

 

 

The issue between AP and switching is that human beings have built in mechanisms to get in an AP state. Dreaming is near exactly what you describe. However, during dreams/that state the body is entirely paralyzed and cannot move. It isn't applicable to switching because the body does move during that time.

 

Your average person can't do anything when in such state, maybe because there is nothing to control the body while they're gone? I know that the body is basically paralyzed when sleeping (unless sleepwalking which is another thing you should think about), but has there been tests done on people who claim to astral project or OBE to prove that they experience the same thing? Because I haven't heard that and that sounds really interesting, and I would like to read articles about that if you got any links.

 

Speaking of sleeping though, Roswell can sort of wake the body up while I still keep sleeping. I tend to wake up pretty soon after as he's getting up and I don't have a history with sleepwalking, so maybe that's why. It's pretty distracting I can tell you. Other people claim they can stay asleep, but I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. People do sleepwalk after all.

 

Are you... agreeing with me here?

 

No, unless you agree that the mind is some awesome shit. I'm telling you why someone might think they are actually having an OBE because the imaginary senses are so realistic, they couldn't even imagine (hah) that it's just imagination. And because the mind is such awesome shit, maybe, just maybe, it's possible for you to be experiencing a similar thing, a "realistic" adventure purely in your imagination while the another person in your mind uses the body. What do we know, basically nothing.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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That's exactly my point, you don't have to restate it. Both explanations are pretty absurd.

---

"perhaps it would be possible (not with the current technology of course) to only take your mind from you and leave everything physical behind and put that mind in another body."

 

It's been done with a monkey.

 

" But if it could do something like that, then doing the same with your own mind doesn't seem that impossible, either."

 

This isn't about the physical brain moving, this is about something operating within the brain, which is a very different realm of ideas. Heck, i'd say it could be comparatively easy to hack a brain out and re-connect it to a new body in comparison to training one brain to act as two and switch between those two.

 

"You still exist. Do you think the brain cares what is using it?"

 

You do not "use" the brain, you are the brain. There has yet to be any sort of proof of a soul or anything similar existing in the mind, including physical parts that contain a "consciousness" where the rest is just useless/hardware.

 

"And nothing's really being reprogrammed here."

 

The normal human brain does not naturally contain the ability to switch, things have to be "reprogrammed" in order to do that.

 

"Actually that reminds me of the test where some other person control's another person's body with their mind, I'll try to look for that thing and post it if you reply."

 

Most of those are less than they seem at first glance, and is just one giving another instructions, not directly controlling. I saw that sensationalism myself actually.

---

"Except it's what many of them say, though? Making roleplaying characters and calling them tulpas, not even pretending that they are actually talking back?"

 

I've been there about nine months and haven't seen that once.

---

"Keeps bad guides such as yours from being approved. It's still disapproved by the way."

 

And reddit keeps bad posts from getting approved. You know who decides that? the community that reads it. It's just a democracy vs republic. Or maybe a dictatorship thing where mods handpicked the guide reviewers and they act as a "republic", I wonder if there is a word for that sort of system.

---

"Your average person can't do anything when in such state, maybe because there is nothing to control the body while they're gone?"

 

Look up sleep paralysis.

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"Roswell can sort of wake the body up while I still keep sleeping. I tend to wake up pretty soon after as he's getting up and I don't have a history with sleepwalking, so maybe that's why."

 

There is always a but, a exception, or a maybe, and there is always an "out". That's a big red flag.

---

"I'm telling you why someone might think they are actually having an OBE because the imaginary senses are so realistic, they couldn't even imagine (hah) that it's just imagination."

 

I think you are agreeing with me actually.

 

Just replace "OBE" with "switch" and "the imaginary senses are" with "what the host feels is".

 

I will give to you that it is possible for the host to let go of their senses, there is no way I could refute that TBH.

 

However, there is a big difference between relaxing and falling into a state of sleep, and having the body move around and be active (and feeling and moving, etc) while the host is doing that.

 

close, but no cigar.

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Ugh it's doing the whole not letting a person post thing, I'll try to doublepost to see if it fixes it.


That's exactly my point, you don't have to restate it. Both explanations are pretty absurd.

 

But the thing is, I know something like that is possible. So I am more willing to believe the absurd example that does exactly what I have experienced than something you have tried to bullshit so you don't have to accept new ideas. Hell, did I 100% believe in switching before I got it to happen? Probably not, didn't even care. But then I found out something about how it works.

 

It's been done with a monkey.

 

So it might be possible with a human, eh? Still a stretch with our current technology, but you never know.

 

This isn't about the physical brain moving, this is about something operating within the brain, which is a very different realm of ideas. Heck, i'd say it could be comparatively easy to hack a brain out and re-connect it to a new body in comparison to training one brain to act as two and switch between those two.

 

Good, good. Sounds about something we might be able to use here and something that might explain things. Also of course the physical brain isn't moving (unless you count it being moved with the body), that's just absurd.

 

You do not "use" the brain, you are the brain. There has yet to be any sort of proof of a soul or anything similar existing in the mind, including physical parts that contain a "consciousness" where the rest is just useless/hardware.

 

You wouldn't be the brain if your mind was taken from you with your brain left in the body. You seem to agree like such is possible, no one cares about any soul bullshit. So if it's possible then you know, maybe it's possible? And if it's possible, does the brain care who is using it?

 

The normal human brain does not naturally contain the ability to switch, things have to be "reprogrammed" in order to do that.

 

The human brain doesn't "naturally" contain many things. You need to learn how to speak, too. Or how to read. All it has is the possibility for us to learn it if we practice. Which is what you do when you want to learn how to switch. Extreme reprogramming.

 

Most of those are less than they seem at first glance, and is just one giving another instructions, not directly controlling. I saw that sensationalism myself actually.

 

This is the one I'm talking about, though that video is piss poor if they want to show us anything with it. Well, of course it can't be done against someone's wish (yet), but for a tulpa, it would be pretty hard to control anything as well if the host started to fight against it. But there's a fine line between giving instructions and directly controlling. You could say all we do is give instructions for the body to move in the first place.

 

I've been there about nine months and haven't seen that once.

 

What, I gotta start looking for logs? Please no, it was horrible the first time around. Actually you might want to ask the user NotAnonymous for the logs if he ever comes on the forums, he has tons of them and seems to be a masochist.

 

And reddit keeps bad posts from getting approved. You know who decides that? the community that reads it. It's just a democracy vs republic.

 

Aka unpopular opinion censorship.

 

Or maybe a dictatorship thing where mods

 

.info forum users, there was a vote.

 

handpicked the guide reviewers and they act as a "republic", I wonder if there is a word for that sort of system.

 

Yes, every possible rating system in the world, trying to tell the writers of poorly written things meant to help others that theirs aren't up to standards. Opinions are allowed. Badly written guides without any backing up or blindly believing in something there is no proof of is pretty stupid. Just like how we disapprove of every guide where they claim anything extreme as a fact without proof, because the last thing we need is more people thinking someone's personal theories are correct when they don't have any scientific proof about them.

 

You know how you can't be disapproved? Instead of writing a poor guide with barely anything helpful in it, why don't you go write something telling of how you see tuppers in the General Discussion forum. You're obviously more interested in telling people how you see tulpas than actually writing guides or being rational and actually thinking what you require to be able to make wild claims. Well sure, anyone can make those wild claims, but it just makes them the ramblings of a madman if they got nothing to back them up. No one can say what a tulpa is for certain, that includes you. And I didn't know a rational man would claim their opinions and personal theories as a fact.

 

Look up sleep paralysis.

 

I know what sleep paralysis is. I asked you if you had any data on it actually happening during the people who claim to AP or OBE and it has been scientifically tested. You claim you know it for a fact so I'd be thinking you actually have something backing up that fact.

 

There is always a but, a exception, or a maybe, and there is always an "out". That's a big red flag.

 

I don't even know what you said there.

 

 

Just replace "OBE" with "switch" and "the imaginary senses are" with "what the host feels is".

 

Well that part we agree with, however...

 

However, there is a big difference between relaxing and falling into a state of sleep, and having the body move around and be active (and feeling and moving, etc) while the host is doing that.

 

Except there is no state of sleep.

 

close, but no cigar.

 

Exactly, my dear unrational friend thinking of himself as a rational man. Another try at Fanatic's Guide to Vocality?

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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Because if the tulpa is a delusion the tulpa can't reply.

 

You might find what I added to the guide to explain better, It's in the top of the second page.

Well, no, it doesn't. You're still stating things as fact when you have no evidence for them. If you think that every tulpa is a delusion and that this fact makes people unable to experiencing convincing independence then why is it that people do experience it? You absolutely need to give reasons for your saying

The first relies on the assumption that tulpa are not actually independent, and are actually a delusion. If this is true than it is obvious that a person who goes through the process of creating a tulpa will go two routes. One, force and never accomplish everything. Two, force and eventually reply to themselves, with a high chance that those replies will feel like parroting, because they are.

because no, it's not obvious.

 

 

You think someone would do that? just go on the internet and tell lies?

 

Unless you have personally been unconscious while a tulpa is doing things, and were able to find things like logs or activities with timestamps of a tulpa doing things, than I don't think you could make such a statement.

Maybe you want to talk to everyone who has switched? Or maybe you don't, because all you seem to be doing is saying that everyone who reports something that doesn't agree with your ideas is lying. What the fuck is that shit supposed to be, huh? You call that rational in the slightest way?

 

The fact is that you have absolutely no reason to doubt their testimony. Your ideas don't make any sense to begin with, so why should you use that of all things to discriminate who is lying and who isn't? This is a very far cry from rational.

 

 

Again, don't believe everything you hear on the internet. OBE's and AP are absolute bullshit at worst, and lucid dreaming/memory editing at best. There is a reason it's not considered in mainstream knowledge.

Again, absolute rubbish. But OBEs are considered in mainstream knowledge anyway.

 

Do you have any evidence whatsoever for retrospective memory editing being the case here?

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"So I am more willing to believe the absurd example that does exactly what I have experienced than something you have tried to bullshit so you don't have to accept new ideas. "

 

Except both ideas behind switching are perfectly valid and would lead to the same result.

 

---

"So it might be possible with a human, eh? Still a stretch with our current technology, but you never know."

 

It IS possible with a human, and could be done today aside the fact that the person ends up paralyzed from the neck down from the procedure. It's just chopping out the whole brain and putting it in a new person.

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"Also of course the physical brain isn't moving (unless you count it being moved with the body), that's just absurd."

 

This might be a misscommunication. I'm saying it's easier to take out a persons brain and put it in another body than it would be to switch, in theory.

 

Switching a brain is just reconnecting tubes

 

switching in the tulpa context is a heck of a lot more complex than that.

---

"You wouldn't be the brain if your mind was taken from you with your brain left in the body. You seem to agree like such is possible, no one cares about any soul bullshit. So if it's possible then you know, maybe it's possible? And if it's possible, does the brain care who is using it?"

 

You cannot take a person's mind out of the body without removing the brain. The mind and the brain are the exact same thing and there is no such thing as a "conciousness" that can be transferred between a brain and another brain.

 

The whole "Transfer to computer" theory rests on slowly scanning and destroying a brain while simulating those parts on a computer.

---

"The human brain doesn't "naturally" contain many things. You need to learn how to speak, too. Or how to read. All it has is the possibility for us to learn it if we practice. Which is what you do when you want to learn how to switch. Extreme reprogramming."

 

I'll give you that one to an extent, but there is a huge difference between learning to read and learning to switch. All reading is is interpreting characters to have meaning, and the brain is designed to look at and make relations between things, and even with that fact reading takes years for a person to learn.

---

"Well, of course it can't be done against someone's wish (yet), but for a tulpa, it would be pretty hard to control anything as well if the host started to fight against it. But there's a fine line between giving instructions and directly controlling. You could say all we do is give instructions for the body to move in the first place."

 

We give "instructions" along nerves and controls in the body. the "instructions" in that article are just pricking a finger or something of that sort. Not exactly controlling another body. The only interesting thing here is that a computer can interpret commands via brainwaves.

---

"What, I gotta start looking for logs? Please no, it was horrible the first time around. Actually you might want to ask the user NotAnonymous for the logs if he ever comes on the forums, he has tons of them and seems to be a masochist."

 

Does one or two people make a community? As said, i've been on reddit and the IRC and i've never seen someone who claims to have a tulpa and says it's RP at the same time, aside the theories such as my own.

---

"You know how you can't be disapproved? Instead of writing a poor guide with barely anything helpful in it, why don't you go write something telling of how you see tuppers in the General Discussion forum. You're obviously more interested in telling people how you see tulpas than actually writing guides or being rational and actually thinking what you require to be able to make wild claims. Well sure, anyone can make those wild claims, but it just makes them the ramblings of a madman if they got nothing to back them up. No one can say what a tulpa is for certain, that includes you. And I didn't know a rational man would claim their opinions and personal theories as a fact."

 

See, when I made that comment I was basically saying that there is little to no difference in the system reddit uses and the system this guide approval team uses. It's a vote to decide what gets shown and what does not.

 

And you know, for someone who claims "we can't know what's right" you do sure seem keen on telling people they are wrong.

 

You can sit there and say "oh you can't prove it" all day long and it wont make any difference at all. "rationalistic" means that I use things that i've seen over time and my own experiences to make observations and come to a conclusion based on those. It does not mean that the conclusion is specifically correct, but instead that i'm not just trying to guess out of the blue as to what a tulpa is.

 

And of course, you can go on your own little rant on how "the irc and forums are all just stupid role players that I like feeling superior to", you can say that everything i've seen and observed is absolutely wrong, and you can set here and just say "Well I experienced this so X must be incorrect because I think it's that way!", but at the end of the day that changes nothing at all.

 

I cannot trust and have no reason to trust what you say in this argument because it's obvious you are going to attempt to skew facts and bend what you say. Why is it that when I talk to a person about how their tulpa is independent and I ask them "so, why do you say that" they end up just saying that because they are "interrupted" by their tulpa or their tulpa "changes things while they are gone", which is not proof in the least, especially in a field like tulpa where people are essentially learning to trick their brains to do things.

 

You want to be a hypocrite? go on ahead, you want to call me irrational? go on ahead, you can talk all day and that doesn't change anything. However, if you are going to think that your own little personal experiences or what people say is true changes anything about what is real or what should be considered real than I am sorry but you are just plain wrong.

 

Yet you accuse me of being irrational.

---

"I know what sleep paralysis is. I asked you if you had any data on it actually happening during the people who claim to AP or OBE and it has been scientifically tested. You claim you know it for a fact so I'd be thinking you actually have something backing up that fact."

 

Actually I claimed that AP and OBE is absolute bullshit and just people dreaming or imagining things. I also am saying that it's impossible for a person to use a "Sleeping state" to switch, because the body paralyzes itself when it's in these sorts of states.

---

"I don't even know what you said there."

 

I touched on it earlier.

 

No matter who you ask, if they claim their tulpa is independent, or some other huge claim, and have "personal expierence" to back it up there is always an out.

 

You yourself said that you nearly always wake up soon after or near the time your tulpa takes control of your body. People who say their tulpa acts in the wonderland without them being aware never give consideration to that they can very likely be making up the whole experiences and other things, and I have yet to see any story or evidence of a person who did something with tulpa without one of these "outs".

 

Why is it that people are so frequently unsure that their tulpa is talking or not?

 

Why do tulpa tend to only act in ways that the host is knowledgeable that the tulpa can act? Why is it that when one person mentions tulpa leaving all of a sudden tons of people's tulpa are leaving, even thought it NEVER happened in the past?

 

You either have to deny that these things happen, and you can deny them if you are so willing to, or you can try to make a theory on why tulpa do this that actually explains it. That's what rationalism is.

---

"Except there is no state of sleep."

 

That's my point, this state of sleep cannot be an explanation for how switching works.

 

 

Second post:

 

"Well, no, it doesn't. You're still stating things as fact when you have no evidence for them."

 

IF is a wonderful word.

 

"If you think that every tulpa is a delusion and that this fact makes people unable to experiencing convincing independence then why is it that people do experience it? You absolutely need to give reasons for your saying "

 

I went over this in my reply to the post above your own.

 

---

"because no, it's not obvious."

 

It's not obvious that if tulpa aren't something that develop on their own and are independent that a person trying to make a tulpa will either never have one or end up lying to themselves?

 

I don't know. I think it's pretty obvious.

---

"Maybe you want to talk to everyone who has switched? Or maybe you don't, because all you seem to be doing is saying that everyone who reports something that doesn't agree with your ideas is lying. What the fuck is that shit supposed to be, huh? You call that rational in the slightest way? "

 

Trust me, i've tried, and i've talked to some who have switched. It seems you two arguing with me are suddenly the only two people in the entire community who claim to be able to entirely switch with you and your tulpa in totally separate places, with you fully removed from your senses and your tulpa in control. And do you honestly expect me to talk to everyone who has switched?

 

I also discuss things similar to this in my other reply.

 

"The fact is that you have absolutely no reason to doubt their testimony. Your ideas don't make any sense to begin with, so why should you use that of all things to discriminate who is lying and who isn't? This is a very far cry from rational."

 

My ideas are based on what I know about how human minds work and everything I know about how tulpa work. They are based on a decent amount of background information and actually do make sense.

 

And yes, my idea is stretching the concept of people being able to believe things that never happened and actually feel like they did happen, but it's not like there are any ideas that don't.

 

You are trying to say my theory makes no sense when you are basically stating that the human brain can basically divide itself into two parts and hand control between them, and develop that ability, in some cases, in under two years. And, even worse, there is NOTHING anywhere that supports that the human mind can do anything even similar to that. The only thing perhaps is schizophrenia and/or DID, and in one case the symptoms are nothing like switching, and in the other case it's not even widely accepted to be a "thing"

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/expert.q.a/02/23/dissociative.identity.disorder.raison/

---

"Again, absolute rubbish. But OBEs are considered in mainstream knowledge anyway. "

 

They are known in the mainstream knowledge, but they are also considered solidly not real in mainstream knowledge.

---

"Do you have any evidence whatsoever for retrospective memory editing being the case here?"

 

It's impossible to have evidence in paper that I could just copy paste for you, but I explain my rationalization for what I say in everything I say above.

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