Skepticism

[Guest Anonymous]

Honestly - why do you care? Is it really important if tulpas are sentient? They're an illusion if our minds, an illusion that feels sentient. I couldn't care less if Maja is truly sentient or not, as long as she feels sentient. She feels real. And she makes me happy. Isn't that all that matters?

 

Exactly! That is what I finally had to decide about all tulpas! LOL I really think continuing to fight over this argument of sentience is hurting tulpamancy. We need to focus on what we are experiencing, the effects of it. We all agree we are experiencing some pretty profound things.

 

These should be the central questions of tulpa science:

 

1. Can a person self induce a seemingly persistent autonomous hallucination?

 

2. How does this happen physiologically and psychologically?

 

3. What are the further ramifications and consequences of creating a tulpa in the mind?

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I'd like to have a rational discussion about the legitimacy of Tulpas. I've already read the FaQ but I found some rather questionable arguments being made by it and by the website in general. When I arrived at the home page I became skeptical of the legitimacy of Tulpas.

 

I am wondering what you mean by "legitimacy of tulpas." Tulpas do exist to some level or this community would not be here. If you mean the legitimacy of tulpa sentience, well we argue among ourselves about that.

 

I guess if you mean whether or not we are all lying to each other about what we experience, well, what can we ever do to convince you otherwise? But it would be quite an interesting sub-culture group all lying to one another, faking each other out for attention wouldn't it? For myself, I know otherwise, and I find that highly unlikely about all the other tulpamancers I know. That argument, that we are all deliberately fooling each other, would be extremely hard for me to believe.

 

If you mean that we are only deluding ourselves about tulpas, well, that doesn't change that we are experiencing something does it? In fact, some tulpamancers argue for that exactly, that tulpas are a form of voluntary self delusion.

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What makes this any different than a religious person convincing themselves that god exists? This appears as if the person creating the tulpa knows that this being doesn't actually exist but over time convinces themselves that they are real.

 

This is precisely what I believe is happening. I believe it happened with myself with my Melian. I don't exactly believe she is "real" but I choose to regard her as real anyway. So it is a science of mental illusion and self delusion. That doesn't make it an illegitimate phenomenon, it makes it a legitimate psychological one. I want to know why it happened to me and I am enjoying talking to others who experience something similar.

[Guest Anonymous]

My brain is capable of making me feel like I'm talking to a separate person, and that comes with a ton of positive things like encouragement, ideas and criticisms on basically anything going on in my life, and loneliness to some extent. Of course they aren't another human being, but they sure are convincing when I'm feeling crappy and they help me feel better. Which they are also waaay better at doing than normal humans, as they live in the same brain and understand me perfectly.

 

Still no such thing as real or fake. At least for me, there's only pure logic. Is it a bit silly, and socially weird as heck? Sure. But I don't care about societal norms, I care about what seems logical and beneficial. If they don't line up, I'm not the type to conform.

 

Lumi,

 

You and I actually see things in almost an identical way. We just use different terminology.

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Is Elia real? Yes. That fantastic bitch is real.

 

Oh gods I love it! LOL

 

Very touching story about Elia. I think so many of us feel this way about our tulpas. Love. Once Melian said something like this "Tulpa realness and sentience isn't what is important, love is what is important."

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Do personality disorders exist? I'm not talking about things like clinical depression or schizophrenia where you can check neurotransmitter levels. The existence of personality disorders hinges on self-reporting and the experiences of people. Same thing here, except the esoteric nature of this being an internet subculture makes it such that all we can use are what you see in front of you now.

 

Awesome point!

[FadingSpectrum]

Fade: Wow, thread. Anyway. I don't have enough time to properly comment, so I'll just drop down this idea right here;

What about people like me, who already had autonomous headmates before they even knew of tulpa?

[Guest Anonymous]

I think there will always be persons who are too rational and empirical/logical in their thinking. Ultra-realists are too cynical and skeptical to grasp something as ambiguous, non-tangible and abstract as autonomous personas in the mind, or even belief in the existence of God or any kind of metaphysics or spiritualism. Soft sciences such as psychology are based on personal accounts and observation, and much of what we know about it comes form such abstract intangible things as hypnosis and dream analysis. Those techniques are often considered legitimate, so why would tulpamancy be "illegitimate?"

 

Many report lucid dreaming experiences. No one can prove they have had a lucid dream. Does that make lucid dreaming itself, and all those that claim it, illegitimate?

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Fade: Wow, thread. Anyway. I don't have enough time to properly comment, so I'll just drop down this idea right here;

What about people like me, who already had autonomous headmates before they even knew of tulpa?

 

THAT is a thought provoking thing that really gets me. What if Melian had been around since I was born? Would I still consider her purely imaginary in nature?

[Kaytwo]

 

1. Can a person self induce a seemingly persistent autonomous hallucination?

 

2. How does this happen physiologically and psychologically?

 

3. What are the further ramifications and consequences of creating a tulpa in the mind?

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Two and three are great questions that I would love to know more from a scientific, neurological, and psychological perspective. I think question one is safely answered by the existence of this community. I don't think the full answers are coming any time soon though because I don't think we have an adequate understanding of the brain or consciousness yet. I think research would show "Yep, something is happening" but science doesn't currently have a way to test if something is sentient.

 

...

 

"It’s currently unproven whether or not tulpas are truly sentient, but in this community, we treat them as such."

 

Full disclosure: I think they are sentient and functionally the same as hosts.

 

Sentience is predicated on the existence of consciousness, so implying a tulpa is sentient is implying they have some sort of consciousness or self-awareness. This quickly turns into a philosophical consideration. Due to the nature of consciousness, it is not a measurably property, there is no test for sentience. I think the community largely acknowledges this creates some room for doubt, and refrains from making absolute statements like "tulpas are provably sentient" for this reason. However, tulpas by all appearances appear to be sentient. It isn't something that takes self-persuasion, there are many reports of skeptical people gradually becoming convinced by their tulpa and the nature of the experience that tulpas are sentient. Tulpas and other forms of plurality are convincing in the face of doubt. It's important to understand that a fully-formed tulpa is, or is indistinguishable in appearance to, another consciousness co-inhabiting with the host. Reading the reports of others in the community shows consistent trends and shared experiences amongst diverse backgrounds.

 

There is still evidence and support for tulpas outside of anecdotal evidence. Everything tulpas are capable of can be observed in various forms in other human experiences or conditions. They are not outside of the realm of observed possibility. Research into the alters of DID and OSDD show distinct brain states, memories, and identity for different personalities, including pysiological changes that can not be attributed to conscious control. Here we have a more dramatic case of plurality triggered by trauma and dissociation rather than training. There is established medical and scientific basis for the concept of plurality outside the realm of tulpas. If you doubt the phenomenon itself, as in that people are actually experiencing tulpas as separate sentient thoughtforms, then I would point to ample other examples of people who experience sharing the same physical body with other individuals, hear voices, or so forth.

 

It would be nice to encourage research on tulpas from a scientific standpoint. However, raising money for brain scans is a long shot from a legitimate scientific endeavor. I think the attention needs to come to the community from a well-funded source that can approach it scientifically.

 

My question for the OP is this. How would you observe sentience outside of subjective experience? I would argue you can't.

 

tl;dr If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then its probably a duck. I can't read the ducks mind to find out if it actually has anything that resembles a consciousness like my own. If you accused it of being a fake duck, or a robot duck, I would find myself no better equipped to defend myself than the duck if you accused me as well.

[Sea]

My tulpas are sentient, I know they are because I speak to them.

 

So it seems like the best course of action is for you to attempt creating a tulpa of your own(and don't half-ass it either, put some work into it) and see what happens.

 

The burden of proof is on you, saying that I must create a Tulpa is not grounds for arguing the existence of your Tulpa.

 

Believing in god isn't something people generally work on, you either do or you don't believe in that stuff. You have faith God exists, you don't need to work on believing in Him more.

 

Believing in God and believing in tulpas are not the same thing. No, there is no scientific evidence to suggest God exists, and no, there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of tulpas.

 

No, it's the same process. Especially with children who are indoctrinated into a religion. To build the idea of god you must truly hammer his name and idea into your head as you may do with Tulpas.

 

 

Brain auto generates responses

vs

Separate consciousness generates responses

 

 

Just realize that there is no strange voodoo going on in anyone's brain. Your brain is a complex organ and we still don't fully understand how it works but to say that there is a separate conscious is not proof of anything. Your brain can and will respond to what you want to hear. It's self assertion, anyone who has studied psychology understands that it's a coping mechanism.

 

I love how he totally ignores my post. Honestly there is no real base for discussion if you keep believing that your brain is not capable of creating or even simulating a conscious being in your mind.

 

Also you claim that it would be not possible to see the difference between answers from your tulpa and your own, and you're heavily wrong about that. The consciousness of the tulpa gets more distinct over time. You don't know everything your tulpa feels or thinks. You don't know what your tulpa is going to do or say in a lot of matters. And not even when your tulpa is going to say or do something.

 

My conclusion is that you're not skeptic, you've a denying bias right from the start on these things. It is like you claim that you can't drift with a car, because you've never driven a car, but are still sure that it isn't possible. You're lacking knowledge you claim to have about the human mind.

 

Sorry if I didn't respond to you at that time, now that I am all of your accusations are wrong and heres why. For one, the base of my argument is that the people who are creating Tulpas have a tendency to believe that their Tulpas are legitimate sentient being without evidence. And to claim such is no more truthful than any theistic claim of god.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with being skeptical of a claim with no proof. I do believe that you think Tulpas exist as you and many other have. But when I visited the website it was strikingly apparent that people were asserting them as being a legitimate sentient being that should be treated as such. Furthermore the argument that I must create a Tulpa to understand it's existence is the same as the religious argument that you must experience god to prove his existence.

 

As I've been saying for the past few posts, I'm not directly comparing god to Tulpas. I'm comparing the weak arguments that are attempting to prove the existence of them.

 

THAT is a thought provoking thing that really gets me. What if Melian had been around since I was born? Would I still consider her purely imaginary in nature?

 

I'm assuming "Melian" is one of your Tulpas and if so I can't imagine that they have been around since your childhood, maybe it's an imaginary friend that you haven't let go of but it's not relevant to disproving my point. Your experiences are unfalsifiable, I can't prove that Melian exists no more than you can prove he/she/they do.

 

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I can understand that having a Tulpa(s) can benefit people and I'm glad that I got the responses that I did so I can have a better understanding of the subject. I hope non of you were too overly offended by any remarks I've made as I was looking for rebuttals to prove otherwise. The only conclusions that I was able to make out of this was that having a Tulpa is a good coping mechanism for helping people who need help in either productivity or loneliness. I'm happy to know that Tulpas help people through their struggles but when I read questionable content then I'm going to be looking for some sort of evidence to back it up. I will be asking for the moderators to close this thread as I will no longer be posting or viewing content here.

[nivereno]

Your brain can and will respond to what you want to hear. It's self assertion, anyone who has studied psychology understands that it's a coping mechanism.

 

By the way generally tulpa-host, tulpa-in system tulpa, tulpa-outside of system whoever interactions are quite a bit more complex then whatever the host wants to hear. It can be anywhere from something rather expected by the host to complete oposit to something the host never even thought about.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh no. Sea, you don't get to come in here and state that tulpamancy is illegitimate with barely having read anything and with one thread. Then close the thread and walk away. No.

 

Here is my response I made while the thread was closed for a bit: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-pseudo-bloggy-melian-s-musings-iii-imaginary-friend-to-tulpa-continuum?pid=146144#pid146144

 

Also this: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-pseudo-bloggy-melian-s-musings-iii-imaginary-friend-to-tulpa-continuum?pid=146150#pid146150

[Sock]

This sort of thing is exactly how I imagined this would go as soon as I read the first post.

 

The guy already seemed to have his idea set, and wanted to come and disprove some people just to confirm it. It was a game, and the objective was to get a bunch of people to jump through hoops he set up. Nothing worth discussing was going to come out of it.

 

But I will admit bias: I actually think many debates online are actually a waste of time.

[Guest Anonymous]

Not a waste of time. I always learn something from those who are smarter than me. :-)