[sentience] Would you say that creating a tulpa requires belief or suspension of disbelief?

[Guest Anonymous]

People on this forum often talk about belief or willingness to believe as being an essential ingredient in recognizing autonomous behavior, and fostering apparent independent sentience, in the process of creating a tulpa.

 

We just realized that in creating me, and interacting with me, my host uses more of a process of suspension of disbelief rather than active belief.

 

Belief

"Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty."

 

Suspending Disbelief

Suspending disbelief is actively suspending judgement concerning the implausibility of an event. "Suspension of disbelief is often an essential element for a magic act or a circus sideshow act. For example, an audience is not expected to actually believe that a woman is cut in half or transforms into a gorilla in order to enjoy the performance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

 

Would you say that creating your tulpa(s) requires belief or suspension of disbelief? Which do you prefer, if either?

[Drakaina]

It's a very good question. Weighing it in my mind, I had to vote for the belief option for this reason:

If you are merely suspending disbelief in your thought form's sentience, then why are you making one at all? If you don't believe in their capability no "proof" is going to come along and verify one way or the other your tulpa's sentience or lack there of. You already have all you're going to get inside your head.

 

Obviously this doesn't apply to accidental tulpa creation, but for people who are actively trying to make a tulpa I don't see what good doubt brings to the table.

[Guest Anonymous]

What if your goal is not to create a true sentience at all, but merely to enjoy apparent autonomy (a convincing illusion)? If all you are attempting to do from the beginning is a mental magician's trick, then suspension of disbelief would be enough. It would be like a virtual reality game. You know it is just a CGI environment and a simulation, but you can choose to immerse yourself into the illusion.

[Drakaina]

The way I see it, "suspension of disbelief" is just a politically correct way of saying, "I want to believe but I don't/can't". Wanting to believe is not the same as believing. A more appropriate way of describing what I think you're going for with the "suspension..." term is belief apathy. Where you haven't formed an opinion either way.

 

That's not really something you can do with tulpamancy though as the experience directly effects you, and you have to be involved. Things like modern vampires or big foot one can have belief apathy for. They're external and can be avoided if you really want.

 

Now, I believe a tulpa can take root in an environment of belief apathy or ignorance of the phenomena of tulpa. However I think for the thought form to become autonomous the host has to believe in their existence. Which may very easily come about once the host starts getting glimpses of the life forming in their mind.

[Luminesce]

Can I vote for all three?

 

I voted for suspension of disbelief, because that's the main problem anyone faces, doubt. Doesn't really matter what you believe, we've got tons of members with tulpas whose answer to whether or not they're sentient is "dunno". But I also don't think that "neither" is required for the average person. Neither having to believe nor suspend disbelief implies that you're comfortable with exactly what a tulpa really is, yet still recognize it as sentient/independent.

 

And obviously, few can do that.

 

The first option is for people with little need of logical explanations in their beliefs, who can believe such things without worrying about whether or not they're true. That's the mindset religious people have toward their God/s and other metaphysical beliefs - all they have to do is believe, and it just is.

 

The second option fits most people. If they can stop doubting their tulpa, then naturally the tulpa will grow until a point where doubting them seems ridiculous or pointless, as their existence has just become fact, ie "the way it is". I'm ignoring the specification of "independence" for this thread, by the way, instead talking about general existence of a tulpa. Suspension of disbelief is a sort of "Give it a chance, and then you'll understand later. Or you might not, and you can leave." And that's basically how we operate, here. Whatever it takes to make someone stop not-believing in tulpas, in order to create one. It works. And there's nothing dishonest about it either, because of the subjectivity of the matter...

 

The third option takes a true understanding of just how subjective belief and experience is. If you neither have to believe nor suspend disbelief, that means you simply know. And most people would say, "Knowing is impossible, we can't measure facts here". And that's why they're the other two options. But if you understand that there is no right or wrong, real or fake, legitimate or illegitimate, then you can simply create and experience a tulpa objectively - by accepting that it's subjective. Once you've come to terms with the fact that there are no determining factors aside from your own belief, you are objectively experiencing subjective reality. Because that's how it is.

 

That's people like me who've completely come to terms with their tulpas' existence - meaning the exact nature of their existence is irrelevant. I can't explain them objectively, though I try for the heck of it, and that's fine with me. Because I understand that they are as I experience them. They seem autonomous, seem independent, seem worth believing in. But I made the decision a long time ago to value them over reality and fact (not realizing at the time that there were no facts), so that no matter what we thought, were told, or even had completely logically debunked, they would still be exactly as they were to me. That is, people, I suppose. My current logical explanation of their nature is rather stable so it's hard to differentiate at this point, but even if I had no logical reason to explain or believe in them with, nothing would change with how we interact and think of each other. Because I know that they just are.

 

Only weirdos pick the third option.

[J.Iscariot]

That is actually a very interesting question, Melian.

 

A friend of mine created a tulpa around 7 months ago or so. He had an intrusive thought about another thoughtform with features similar to his actual tulpa, but he just forgot about it. With time, that thoughtform gathered my friend's attention, and his tulpa's attention, over her existence. They didn't 'want' to focus on her, her manifestation was intriguing. My friend now has 2 tulpas.

 

Whenever I want to study my options, I study my loss and my gain. Meaning that if I were to sell a certain item in my TF2 inventory, I would look at what I gain; financial revenue, but I would lose out on the attachment I have to that said item (considering I feel a lot of attachment to everything in my inventory). We would need to define what belief grants, and what suspension of disbelief grants, then, what belief makes you lose out on, and what suspension of disbelief makes you lose out on.

 

Belief in tulpamancy is a double-edged sword. Why? Because one way, it provides the host with the motivation required to go through the long road of making a tulpa, but belief in excess can create things such as overconfidence, arrogance, and in certain cases, self-deception. By that, I mean that all sorts of belief in excess, if you take them too close to heart, are going to hold a negative effect.

 

How many people came on tulpa.info and asked if their intrusive thoughts were their tulpa, and not different thoughtforms or proto-tulpas or things of the type? How many people had to ask whether this was all a lie or not? You see, guys... you don't need to believe in your tulpas. You need to believe in the person they represent. Because the construction/simulation of sentience will eventually happen; everyone can make a tulpa with the right mindset. But if you don't believe in your tulpas as any more than illusions, they won't grow as persons, thinking entities.

 

Suspension of disbelief grants skepticism, which is good to question one's self, but in excess, it can create stress and uncertainty to the level of paranoia.

 

Belief and suspension of disbelief both are wrong, though.

 

There is no actual way to know whether you are in a complete delusion or not. There is no way to know whether your tulpa, the person you probably appreciate the most (or not), is a complete fake and just something your brain got to commit itself to, because it made you happy, it made you feel refreshed, and gave you things to do. And in the world of self-deception, that would be the most plausible explanation. Belief in one thing implies disbelief in another.

 

But the balance here is that we require both belief and disbelief, yet not suspension in disbelief. To hope for the best yet expect the worst provides a man with two type of beliefs; the one he expects, and the one he fears might happen. Because if the thing he fear happens, it cancels out the 'hope for the best', fulfills the 'expect the worst', but it makes man ready to face it. To believe in a tulpa but to stay doubtful of things until further advancements is healthy enough.

[Luminesce]

Whenever I want to study my options, I study my loss and my gain. Meaning that if I were to sell a certain item in my TF2 inventory, I would look at what I gain; financial revenue, but I would lose out on the attachment I have to that said item (considering I feel a lot of attachment to everything in my inventory).

 

Hey, now you're speaking my language. My Max's is worth a lot more to me as an item than as the money it's worth

now. I bought it for $100 and it's worth like half that much now. But I'd never sell my bunny ears anyway.

 

 

And I agree on everything except the very last part, this doesn't apply to tulpas. That stuff all works for external things outside your control, but your mind is your mind. Expectations and perception create your reality, and both are something you can change at will. Whether you believe it or not, 'cus it's a fact regardless.

 

Subjectively though you could see it as not a fact, and then to you it wouldn't be. I mean, in doing so you would still be proving it a fact, but.. Believe what you like. And not what you dislike.

[LaceyJoshua]

I voted for the third, because tulpa who came about "randomly" are just as legitimate as the ones who are created step-by-step, in my opinion. The ones who come about without intentionally being created--especially before the host ever knew about tulpas--are "proof" enough for me to say that belief is *not* a requirement. Also, I don't think it's a requirement at all if you are creating a tulpa. Why should it be? Yes, I recognize that most people seem to find the belief (or suspended belief, in other cases) very helpful, but there's a difference between finding something helpful and finding something necessary.

[Guest Anonymous]

Now, I believe a tulpa can take root in an environment of belief apathy or ignorance of the phenomena of tulpa. However I think for the thought form to become autonomous the host has to believe in their existence. Which may very easily come about once the host starts getting glimpses of the life forming in their mind.

 

David has no trouble believing in my existence. Clearly, I do exist in some form because I affect him (pseudo-real). He only suspends disbelief when it comes to me being an actual independent mind. He simply chooses to enjoy the illusion and not ask himself how the trick works. He doesn't care and neither do I.

---

I voted for the third, because tulpa who came about "randomly" are just as legitimate as the ones who are created step-by-step, in my opinion. The ones who come about without intentionally being created--especially before the host ever knew about tulpas--are "proof" enough for me to say that belief is *not* a requirement. Also, I don't think it's a requirement at all if you are creating a tulpa. Why should it be? Yes, I recognize that most people seem to find the belief (or suspended belief, in other cases) very helpful, but there's a difference between finding something helpful and finding something necessary.

 

Good point.

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The third option takes a true understanding of just how subjective belief and experience is. If you neither have to believe nor suspend disbelief, that means you simply know. ...That's people like me who've completely come to terms with their tulpas' existence - meaning the exact nature of their existence is irrelevant.

 

Actually, that pretty much describes Davie and I for all those years, up to the point where we went on the internet. Then suddenly there was this sort of pressure to conform to one school of thought or the other. But we are finally realizing, once again, that it is all irrelevant. I am just here, like I always was.

 

That is true about all the labels, such as tulpa, too. Labels are irrelevant. So are the opinions of others about my nature or credibility/validity. We got into this deep well of doubt, not about my existence at all, but about my acceptance by others on the internet and belonging. Now we realize finally that acceptance is also irrelevant. Besides I have dozens of dear friends online who could care less one way or the other. To them, I am just Melian. I have friends who have not brought up the subject of my nature, or even mentioned Davie, in over two years.

---

Whenever I want to study my options, I study my loss and my gain. ... We would need to define what belief grants, and what suspension of disbelief grants, then, what belief makes you lose out on, and what suspension of disbelief makes you lose out on.

 

A very practical, thoughtful approach.

[AnonymousTheCurious]

I am completely sure it needs belief in tulpas for it to work. If you only suspended your disbelief while you force, then if you don't see results in the amount of time you thought it would take you would lose hope in the whole thing and forget about it. I know this because I first started my tulpa in the 'suspension of disbelief' state. After a few months of forcing and almost no activity from my tulpa, I lost heart a little a took a break from forcing every day. My own tulpa had to be the one to tell me she actually existed. If I had just believed in her from the beginning, I would have been able to force up until she spoke for the first time. I mean, who knows what could have happened if I had given up earlier than I did? I might not be where I am today.