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PsiQss' thought's relocation as a general forcing booster


PsiQss
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And I'm afraid that exactly is symbolism. "Metaphors" and "feels" and "making" something "feel" different by "moving" them. Also I see we're back to talking about >the subconscious, huh. I don't think your "subconscious" - if it even exists in the first place, as I don't think any one "thing" in our minds could be called that - needs to be made "ready", or that you have "mental barriers" in the first place. This all is symbolism and obviously, you can change your own mindset without using anything symbolic. Just with willpower alone, you can decide what you wish to accept. The symbolism people use would just be the training wheels, you're not actually doing any of this in your mind, just using symbolism to help you to change your mindset. Which, again, is fine and can be effective, but it's a bit too personal to be approvable. Otherwise we'd have the guide section full of stuff where instead of guiding people how to handle certain things and realize what they can do, they will just be told to imagine bubbles to shield themselves from something BAD or something.

 

But as I said, the tip of imagining how something should be like if you could do it perfectly is a valid tip for some. It's funny how it works quite well for others. As I said, I won't be approving of pure symbolism so right now, this thread is disapprovable in my eyes. But by making the central tip more obvious, I would approve of that and have your symbolism be approved with it as an extra feature. Though if the GAT has other issues with it, they will obviously bring those up with you. All I care about is having the tip easy to access without the symbolism choking it.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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It may be symbolism, but it's helpful to me, at least. Using the "locations" of the mindvoice is helpful for us when practicing possession. There are times where we can get our mindvoices to "switch places" and in that state Sarah is able to be more "at the front of the mind", thought and processing wise. Maybe this will help someone else.

Host: Sakura

Tulpa: Sarah (began June 5th, 2014), Alyx (Began July 23rd, 2014)

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note: usually browsing on mobile, so cannot quote properly

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As I said, symbolism isn't a bad thing and it can be helpful in getting to the correct mindset you need. It's just something that doesn't fit the criteria of approvable guides, tips and resources due to its personal nature. Symbolism as an extra thing is fine, but the main point of the guide or tip shouldn't be shrouded in symbolism, as it makes it needlessly difficult and can make many miss the entire point. Helping people by giving them the idea behind certain actions and explaining it fully without smokes and mirrors is what will hopefully make people realize what exactly it is they are doing and why it works. In the long run, people would end up being more informed instead of using "magic" they don't understand to get rid of their problems. I'd say that's one of my goals with this whole GAT thing, making a collection of helpful stuff that is informative and goes a bit deeper than pretty personal symbolism. Something that helps them change the entire way they think.

 

As in your case, your symbolism makes the tupper more dominant so you accept them being able to take control easier. And they might do the same, too. It makes you perceive things differently and causes you to have the right mindset, one where the tulpa can take control and where you can step back, not being in control anymore. While it can help, I suggest you would wean yourself off this kind of method once you get the hang of the possession process. By relying too much on things like these, you might end up being dependant on them and that could end up hindering your process, as you now require them to be able to do it which might not always be possible. Think of them as training wheels. Once you get the idea and the correct mindset, you can do it by just wanting it to happen.

 

Even if it doesn't actually hurt you in any way, I'm going to guess that a non-symbolic way is going to at least be faster. Not faster as in learning it faster, but by doing it faster, you know? Symbolism tends to take a while to imagine and perceive, while by just knowing what to do and doing it without any added extra things will make you let go of control faster and the tupper take control faster. So once you get possession down using symbolism, you might want to practice a way where you don't use it for speed's sake, if nothing else. Probably ends up taking less effort too. But we're getting a bit off-topic now I think.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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I don't know, Sands. For me, it still is not symbolism. Maybe I'm just too bad at explaining things. I use symbolism and it works pretty well for me, but this definitely doesn't fall into my definition of it. I've been actually thinking whether it does or not, before posting this here. Yes, the "guide" might be a bit symbolistic because it seemed easier to explain it this way. But I don't consider the actual method symbolism. Still, I accept your vote. Although, I've decided to leave the post as is, because this method is more elaborate than just "imagine how would it be... "

 

Also, I'm wondering why are you denying things like "subconscious" or "mental barriers". Maybe you're just looking at this whole tulpa thing more scientifically, while I am a bit abstract person and that's why it's difficult for us to understand each other. And I don't want to fall again into an argument that's based just on a different point of view on the entire thing.

"Tulpamancy? It's a way of life.

More than one..."

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Also, I'm wondering why are you denying things like "subconscious" or "mental barriers". Maybe you're just looking at this whole tulpa thing more scientifically, while I am a bit abstract person and that's why it's difficult for us to understand each other. And I don't want to fall again into an argument that's based just on a different point of view on the entire thing.

 

 

I think maybe it's just a habit of his in the past, even if people took the word (subconscious) loosely for what goes beyond our awareness. I believe he mentioned how the word literally meant nothing because there's a lot of subjectivity under it, especially when people conflate metaphysical aspects to it that not everyone can comprehend. So he's most likely stating these things for the sake of telling you that there's going to be an audience that wouldn't get the whole "subconscious" thing, though I feel this audience might be too miniscule, or just an over-generalization.

 

I hardly think there's a non-symbolic, empirical, and consistent way of conceptualizing certain methods as yet. I figured that symbolism would be inevitable since this whole endeavor does involve a lot of imagination. If people are struggling to imagine and conceptualize these things, maybe it's just a sign for them to augment their cognition, especially when people have a lot of unorthodox ways of making breakthroughs.

 

Of course, he or anyone else can't really demand scientific explanations, otherwise it's just promoting pseudoscience, so I don't think it's him trying to get you to be scientific with a concept full of ad hoc claims/catered only for a concept that doesn't have any scholarly review, or scientific experimentation to back them up.

 

I feel some of the premises in his posts is suggesting you to not have methods that makes the host latch onto their tulpas, and become overly dependent on them. Kind of like finding a transient method, and knowing when to move on. It would be nice to give a suggestion when one could transition to a method which prevents the likelihood of them constraining themselves, and progress.

 

He may seem like he's being too harsh, but he's actually making some good points. Maybe a suggestion is to add a disclaimer to the guide submission of how one doesn't have to constrain themselves to this alone, and that they can mix around with others. It's mostly a backup done because there's some kind of person on the forum that may rely on a few guides, stick to them, not get progress, and then complain.

 

Although it should be implied that people should navigate more than a few guides, Sands is just providing a scenario where people are too indolent, or not flexible enough to look for those other options. Because once self-fulfilling prophecies with tulpas start becoming more isolated from further experimentation, the end result may back fire at times. In other words, when you start finding a system that ends up validating who your tulpa is, they may stick to it, and may not have a chance to progress because you and them would have it engrained in their minds that they're something they're really not.

 

Sands is actually just trying to give padding and protection to your submission to prevent something like that. Of course, I could be wrong in my interpretation of what Sands was trying to get at with you, so if I got something completely wrong there Sands, I apologize.

 

 

Also, I can take a few scans with the submission at a later time to see if I could provide the process behind the symbolism, and what it does to contribute to the end result (e.g. focusing on a certain region in your head, and using imagination and such to get that area of your brain as a way to communicate to your tulpa like with head pressures).

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Well, I'm not telling you to get rid of the symbolism or anything. Have it as an extra thing, definitely. I would just want you to write, I don't know, more? If you stripped all of the symbolism and this DnD-esque alignment table you created, what would you be left with? What is the core tip? It seems like you think it's different from the one I suggested, so now I'm left wondering what exactly it is that this thing is trying to tell me? It is very symbolism-heavy, I'm afraid. I'm not sure if I can try to explain why it is any better if you think this isn't symbolism, but this is making it pretty difficult for us to rate. Seen a couple of people look at this and just been all... Unsure about it. We're at that whole "well it's not bad, but..." situation here, where the but would be followed by "there's just so much symbolism".

 

If you could strip the symbolism and write the core tip at the start with this symbolism thing of your as an extra, I think you would make everyone just approve this easily. Right now it's difficult due to the amount of symbolism it has. I guess I could also ask you what you are trying to teach us with this thing. If you had to explain this with one sentence, could you do it? How many sentences does it take for you to explain it? How much fluff can you trim and still keep it the same? I want to know what is under the symbolism and I'm not sure if I got it right on my first try. Could you help me here?

 

As for word choices, yeah, Linkzelda did mention how I've said that the word "subconscious" basically means nothing these days due to how it has so many potential meanings. Just our unconscious thoughts or some magical being? I don't know, but I've seen both. Secondly, can we say that all of the unconscious stuff happening in our mind is one singular "the subsconsious"? What if there would be multiple ones? Would trying to affect just one of them affect them all? I think we don't know enough about the human mind to be able to say if there is a thing like this. Let's go super off-topic now because we all love talking about this kind of weird shit, right.

 

This far though, I'd say "the subconscious" itself is symbolism. Saying that we are affecting "the subconscious" works because we (well, not all of us but you know) believe in the existence of it and think we can influence this thing, which would in turn fix all of our problems just like that. Again, symbolism isn't bad and this "the subconscious" symbolism can be very strong if you believe it has more power than you, but does it truly exist? I don't think I could claim that. I can just wonder if it exists and give you my theory of why this stuff works. Seems to me like "the subconscious" symbolism can easily be cut if the person understands they have the power to change things themselves without involving any other "being" or "higher force" or something. You just need yourself and your own willpower. There are many mysteries in our minds. When does the unconscious become conscious? Where does this "the subconscious" end if it exists? Wow so deep.

 

Mental barrier meanwhile, is a word that gives more power to our issues that it deserves. By naming it a barrier, you make it a barrier. You make it seem unbreakable, something that stops you. Something that is stronger than you and you can't get past it unless you do something special. Hey, maybe some of our issues are like that. But our own thoughts tend to make things worse than they really are. Mental barrier as a word symbolizes issues we have with certain things. It seems like a barrier, so we think of it as a barrier. But maybe by thinking of it as something else, it will become a lesser thing, maybe it would become easier to fix and overcome when it's not an imposing barrier. Because honestly, it's not a barrier. Can't speak for heavily traumatized or mentally ill people, but you don't have to break down any barriers that are stopping you. Just look at your issue from another angle, maybe involve another person who can say the things you need to hear and see what you can do. The word people use to describe it might be scarier than it really is.

 

But saying we have "mental barriers" when we can't get some kind of tupper thing to work? I guess that could be effective symbolism when you want the people to break through that barrier and make them get the right mindset by thinking they beat that one thing that was holding them back... But I don't think the reality isn't that simple. It's not just one thing that you need to break through which will then somehow fix your problems just like that. It could be I guess, but eh. There most likely are many issues and getting the right mindset can be really difficult. Figuring out the issues and trying to find ways to solve them would be the important thing to do - and by that I mean the root of the issue and not just "I can't do x". What they need to know is why can't I do x and then what can I do to change that.

 

But that doesn't really have much to do with your guide. I guess I just wanted to see if I can make it easier for you to see where I'm coming from?

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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Hmm, I think I see it now. The problem is that things here don't have one consistent meaning and people perceive them differently, that's what makes it difficult to understand. And english not being my native language makes it difficult to explain what I really mean. This entire method is easily to be misunderstood and that's why I did the whole symbolistic explanation to try and avoid confusion. I don't think I'll be able to extract the 'actual' tip from it and squeeze it into few words. But I'll try to add something like that at the beginning. I know I won't be able to go without this explanation, but I think I could write what is this method supposed to do and how will it affect the forcing. Because it's not much of a forcing method itself, more like a trick to aid. That's why I call it a forcing 'booster' - it's not supposed to be used alone but to kind of help to get into the right mindset before the actual forcing.

 

As for the meaning of the words, by subconscious I meant the unconscious thoughts in general, not some ultimate being in the back of our mind. And by mental barrier - that thing that filters out your tulpa's words as unimportant thoughts. Many tulpas said they were struggling to "break through" that barrier in order to be heard, so I thought it won't be an issue to use that term here.

 

Thanks for helping me to improve it. I don't care too much if it gets approved and whatnot, but I want it to be understood by others. I'll try and do some edits later today.

"Tulpamancy? It's a way of life.

More than one..."

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Update: Added three paragraphs to better explain the general idea.

 

"The lost guide" - here I've tried to briefly explain the guide that has inspired me to experiment and as a result come up with this method.

 

"How it works" - in this paragraph I explain what is this method supposed to do and what kind of results you can expect from it.

 

"Origins..." - a story about my experience with this trick before, how did I come up with it and how I didn't think about using it for forcing.. I hope this will give you a better idea of this trick, and will let you understand my point of view.

"Tulpamancy? It's a way of life.

More than one..."

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We know that there's a sort of emotional feedback system in the body. Although the root of anger is in the brain, for example, we feel it in our face, chest, shoulders, arms, and hands. I've heard that it's impossible to become angry when your body is numbed. I've also heard that paraplegics experience less emotion post-injury than prior. This is not symbolism. If it were, some people would experience anger by relaxing their face and curling their toes. But no, pretty much everyone experiences anger by tensing the muscles in the upper body -- that's where we 'feel' the emotion.

 

There have been experiments on connecting different eye movements to thoughts. This isn't a reliable lie detector the way NLP people will tell you it is, but the idea is taken seriously outside of the NLP community.

 

The idea of moving a feeling a thought somewhere else is symbolism. And I'm not sure many people would feel the same thought in the same area. But the idea of a thought having a location is not symbolism, and it is a useful concept. Definitely not all symbolism, though I can see where Sands is coming from.

"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson

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I think that if this were symbolism then many people would not share PsiQss' schema of thought classification. I surveyed the general population (n=4; me plus some guys on the internet I asked just now) and 75% said that winning the lottery and going to the shops don't feel qualitatively different. Now, for me, they do, and that is immediately obvious to me. I think it's reasonable to assume that if the others had this schema then it would be obvious and not a matter of discovery; 'discovery' can in many cases mean creation.

 

So I think that your schema isn't something that a lot of people have, and that the parts of your guide dealing directly with it are symbolic in nature. Wait till I publish that in Nature.

 

 

Seriously though, I think the basis for this guide is expectation priming like Sands maybe suggests. In 'moving' the thought you attempt to believe "this thought is real and happening" (or wherever you move it to). Naturally you anticipate experiences corresponding to this belief. I know some people do this, and I know that everyone's beliefs work like that.

 

Secondarily, imagining a potential consequence - this is referred to as "visualising/actualising" in some places - can give you greater confidence in it and so on. I'm not sure how much of that effect is due to what I mentioned in the previous paragraph, though.

 

This place doesn't have a guide detailing these practices and I think that's a shame because it's effective for a lot of people, especially, I suspect, if they encounter it early on. I think you could generalise this post to a guide like that, and in that case I'd happily approve for Guides. As-is, I'd approve for Tips unless you have some evidence of good significance that this isn't symbolism and I'm making a mistake.

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