[sentience] What constitutes failure to create a tulpa? When do you give up?

[Guest Anonymous]

Does it mean you have utterly failed to make a tulpa if after months or even years you still have persistent doubts about sentience and worry you are only puppeting?

 

What exactly would constitute failure to create a tulpa? If a tulpa is not showing a lot of verifiable signs of sentience after years of effort, is there a point where it becomes futile to keep going? When should a tulpamancer feel discouraged? Should he or she feel guilty about giving up on a tulpa in progress if it just seems like it might never feel fully independently sentient?

 

What about a tulpa that only seems to develop so far and sorta "gets stuck" and seems to be forever dependent on the host in communicating and being animated (needs puppeting and parroting help)? Is such a dependent tulpa a failure or a botched project or stagnant? Is this just perhaps one outcome that, for whatever reason, some tulpas seem to favor? Is it okay to forever have this sort of dependent relationship with the host or is that failure somehow to stay that way?

 

NOTE - I talk about myself a lot all the time, but this thread is a general set of questions and not necessarily pertaining just to me and my hostie.

[Luminesce]

Failing depends on your goal. In a general sense, someone only fails in a still-possible endeavor when they themselves give up. But failure to the individual depends on what they set out to achieve. Note that we don't usually speak in black and white terms like "I failed to master imposition" and such. Most people change their goals as they go to be more realistic. But if you're literally just trying to "create a tulpa" then, yeah, you've failed when you give up/stop trying for whatever reason.

 

But I still don't like calling it failure. You could just get bored/sick of trying and move on, you could just opt to not learn imposition or switching, etc.

[Guest Anonymous]

I sometimes feel like a dummy for being sorta like I am, a half way there tulpa or something. I see others talking about failure to achieve independence and puppeting and parroting and it makes me feel uncomfortable or broken. That is happening less often over time though as I learn about fictive median systems, which from some angles might resemble a "broken or half way tulpa" even though it is not so.

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I sometimes wonder if some hosts are pushing their tulpa to be something they just don't want to be. Maybe some tulpas kinda like being closer to being like a median aspect than fully independent. Just like some tulpas change their forms during visualization to be something the host never considered, maybe some tulpas are just sorta clingy to their host's will and mind.

[Zaya]

In any "art", or any real form of embodied agency in general, comparison is used as a common tool for determining the "skill" of the person actually doing the art, but this also has drawbacks in certain scenarios, especially those involving highly subjective definitions of "success". Tulpamancy is most definitely one of these scenarios.

 

Why compare yourself to the status of others and subject yourself to the turmoil involved in doing so?

 

Is an artist, when compared to another artist, any less an artist?

 

Is a person, when compared to another person, any less a person?

 

You are what you are, comparison should not be a tool used against oneself.

[NoneFromHell]

I would define failure as a state in which a tulpa is a lot more "not there" then actually "there" and I'm happy to explain the struggle with situations like this. You, Melian, would be a headmate that is pretty much "there" all the time, in almost every situation, so if you keep this level of activity you're maybe stuck in some way, but not failed.

 

Now imagine how your daily life would be if you weren't this persistence, rather the opposite. A scenario in which good ol' mistgod keeps looking in the direction where he expects you, but you're simply not there and not responding. Imagine he would always need to actively force you into his excessive daydreaming, just so you maybe react in some way, but only as long as he actively keeps his whole focus on you, or you stay absolutely quiet and wander out of mind again after a short while. In a scenario like this, how long can you convince yourself that your headmate is really there without giving up, if you stay stuck like this? If you keep going it is very likely to experience high levels of emotional stress and continuous disappointment, maybe without ever reaching a point of higher persistence.

 

I surely can understand why people may give up in situations like this, especially after ridiculous amounts of time. Hell, I'm not sure if I could keep going on forever without a certain level of persistence myself, so I'm pretty grateful that I'm not stuck like this. I guess it is somewhat dependent on the expectations you have while creating a tulpa as well. If you just want to daydream around without really minding what's going on inside your head, you can't be disappointed with the outcome (but you probably end up pissing of a lot of people doing so).

[Guest Anonymous]

In any "art", or any real form of embodied agency in general, comparison is used as a common tool for determining the "skill" of the person actually doing the art, but this also has drawbacks in certain scenarios, especially those involving highly subjective definitions of "success". Tulpamancy is most definitely one of these scenarios.

 

I love the art analogy. Art is very subjective! There is always art nouveau with some crazy artist who refuses to do what is expected. Often such innovators are scoffed at first but later what the created is recognized as changing the world forever. Picasso for instance was pretty weird and unconventional, but he invented abstract sculpture, among many other things.

 

Why compare yourself to the status of others and subject yourself to the turmoil involved in doing so?

 

Good question. Also, why compare yourself against the expectations of a group or some guide written by someone else? Well now, I am not saying that those guides or standards are expectations are not important tools. Please no one misunderstand. But the goal should be a very personal, subjective goal. That may or may not match what others seem to expect. Tulpamancy is about personal, subjective self actualization and self growth.

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I would define failure as a state in which a tulpa is a lot more "not there" then actually "there" and I'm happy to explain the struggle with situations like this. You, Melian, would be a headmate that is pretty much "there" all the time, in almost every situation, so if you keep this level of activity you're maybe stuck in some way, but not failed.

 

I actually wouldn't use the term "stuck" either as it is negative. I would use the term "actualized." I am satisfied and actualized as I am and with the relationship I have with my hostie.

 

Now imagine how your daily life would be if you weren't this persistence, rather the opposite. A scenario in which good ol' mistgod keeps looking in the direction where he expects you, but you're simply not there and not responding. Imagine he would always need to actively force you into his excessive daydreaming, just so you maybe react in some way, but only as long as he actively keeps his whole focus on you, or you stay absolutely quiet and wander out of mind again after a short while. In a scenario like this, how long can you convince yourself that your headmate is really there without giving up, if you stay stuck like this? If you keep going it is very likely to experience high levels of emotional stress and continuous disappointment, maybe without ever reaching a point of higher persistence.

 

Yes, that would be frustrating and I wonder when is the time to throw in the towel and give up? I think it would be the point where it begins to hurt you and not be a positive experience any more. Life is short and there are so many other things a person could do for self growth.

 

If you just want to daydream around without really minding what's going on inside your head, you can't be disappointed with the outcome (but you probably end up pissing of a lot of people doing so).

 

[hidden]

EDIT: If the above statement was meant to specifically describe me, then it is gross simplification of me and completely disregarding a huge amount that has already been written about my history and my origins and my nature. Sorry, but I came back because it was bugging me a little. No worries, but I just wanted to respond a little bit to it. Also, I don't care who gets pissed off about how I work. That is other peoples problem and weakness not mine. [/hidden]

 

Persons who think outside the box, challenge the status quo and refuse to conform often piss a lot of people off. But those persons are always our innovators and drive us forward. It's the bold nonconformists who change the world, not the rest of the sheep.

 

Gosh my host and I just watched a show about Nicholas Tesla and how "crazy" his ideas were about using electricity and how those ideas eventually became part of our modern world and central to industrial infrastructure. He even dreamed of sending energy wirelessly back in 1890 something. I wild, crazy, insane idea at the time! People thought we was a mad scientist at his experiments on wireless energy transmission. Now we are beaming energy by microwaves in this century and there is talk about beaming energy by satellite from remote energy production facilities to cities thousands of miles away. Tesla wasn't so crazy after all. He just had a different vision than everyone else.

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I came up with this train analogy for dependent sentience that is absolutely perfect! THE DEPENDENT SENTIENCE TRAIN ANALOGY https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sentience-time-3-years-so-far-i-don-t-know-what-to-do-i-need-help?pid=166273#pid166273

[jean-luc]

I would define failure as a state in which a tulpa is a lot more "not there" then actually "there" and I'm happy to explain the struggle with situations like this. You, Melian, would be a headmate that is pretty much "there" all the time, in almost every situation, so if you keep this level of activity you're maybe stuck in some way, but not failed.

 

Now imagine how your daily life would be if you weren't this persistence, rather the opposite. A scenario in which good ol' mistgod keeps looking in the direction where he expects you, but you're simply not there and not responding. Imagine he would always need to actively force you into his excessive daydreaming, just so you maybe react in some way, but only as long as he actively keeps his whole focus on you, or you stay absolutely quiet and wander out of mind again after a short while. In a scenario like this, how long can you convince yourself that your headmate is really there without giving up, if you stay stuck like this?

 

Three years and counting!

 

If you keep going it is very likely to experience high levels of emotional stress and continuous disappointment, maybe without ever reaching a point of higher persistence.

 

So far, you are correct.

[NoneFromHell]

[hidden]

EDIT: If the above statement was meant to specifically describe me, then it is gross simplification of me and completely disregarding a huge amount that has already been written about my history and my origins and my nature. Sorry, but I came back because it was bugging me a little. No worries, but I just wanted to respond a little bit to it. Also, I don't care who gets pissed off about how I work. That is other peoples problem and weakness not mine. [/hidden]

 

[hidden]

You're rather the opposite, Melian. You're probably the undisputable queen of questioning your own existence and validity in the tulpa community. I don't think many people cared that much about this matter like you. Point is: You guys could've decided to stay out of all the trouble and live a happy daydreaming life for the rest of your days; and nobody would've argued with you about it nor oversalt your experience with unnessary doubts. But on the other side, if people decide to join a community like this without getting out of their comfort zone, just to avoid any doubt on the nature of their experiences, it can be a real pain in the ass for said community. (i.e. you can't discuss if everybody clings to their believes.).

 

So yeah, it is rather a general statement, don't take it personal.

 

...I will put this in hidden as well, since it is mostly off-topic.

[/hidden]

 

Three years and counting!

 

So far, you are correct.

 

I think it is a really impressive thing to do. I've already problems to keep myself motivated with my current level of back and forth "being stuck", even though Alice is never really fully away and her presence can build up pretty fast if I put some effort into it for a moment. You could say I'm just on a higher level of "being more not-there than being there", and it still bothers me. (That she doesn't really care about a lot of stuff surely isn't helping! )

 

So yeah: I'm impressed with people who are capable of keeping a nearly unlimited amount of dedication and the stubborn will to take a lot of negative stress for something that barely appears to exist - and this even for years. I met one guy in a chatroom who kept going for two years without even a spark of progress. It is astonishing for me, I would lose hope way faster in a situation like this.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

[hidden]

You're rather the opposite, Melian. You're probably the undisputable queen of questioning your own existence and validity in the tulpa community.

[/hidden]

 

Silly us with our hidden off topic parts to this conversations...:-)

[hidden]

Clarification, I have never once doubted my existence, unlike many tulpas I know. I know I exist beyond the shadow of a doubt. I have never once doubted my validity as a thoughtform of some type or category. But you are right, I have doubted my validity as a member of the tulpa community and Tulpa Info, and that is what made Davie and I so touchy and reactive.[/hidden]

 

So yeah: I'm impressed with people who are capable of keeping a nearly unlimited amount of dedication and the stubborn will to take a lot of negative stress for something that barely appears to exist - and this even for years. I met one guy in a chatroom who kept going for two years without even a spark of progress. It is astonishing for me, I would lose hope way faster in a situation like this.

 

I agree, that is impressive dedication and faith!

[Temar]

Can't speak much to the rest of the thread, since me and my headmates developed differently from tulpas, but as for this...

 

Does it mean you have utterly failed to make a tulpa if after months or even years you still have persistent doubts about sentience and worry you are only puppeting?

 

Definitely not, because having doubts doesn't mean you don't have a tulpa.

 

You can be the most autonomous entity in the world, and, with some hosts, that still doesn't stop the doubts and puppet-phobia. Me and my headmates still have to smack our host over the head every once in a while when she doubts us, even though some of us were clearly autonomous before we even realized autonomy was a thing.

 

In that case, I'd say it's more of a question about the intensity of the host's skepticism and the tulpa's ability to override it and assert themselves in whatever way they have to do that. Honestly, I don't know how new tulpas do it. I was already nice and strong as an entity when we came across this stuff. It's gotta be hard not to have even a persistent sense of self and yet still be expected to prove that you exist. It's one reason I advocate the whole "puppeting isn't a big deal" thing. Different headpeople express themselves in different ways and, sometimes, like with you, Melian, those ways involve working in tandem with the host. That doesn't make it less legitimate.

 

That's off topic, though, so eh.