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[Personality] How Do the Thoughts of System Mates Effect Each Other?
#1
Cat has struggled a lot with the fear she's influencing my beliefs and opinions. Now that we are experimenting with switching, we realized there may be some truth to the idea, but we're not sure in what way or to what extent.

Our most recent switching attempts lead us to this weird state that behaves like a switch but feels like possession. In this state, I noticed I am more prone to the body's anxiety than I was when doing possession and I get the feeling I'm forced to work with the habits and thought patterns Cat established from fronting for so long. In the back, I don't always have the best grasp on my own thoughts and sometimes I am influenced by Cat's thoughts and feelings because it's easier to process what she's thinking.

What do you guys think? Is a Tulpa more mentally independent in the back, front, or something in between? If in between, what is the best position to be in for the most independent and pure thought?



I mentioned the idea for this thread in the Last One To Post Wins! thread, and this was a response I promised to reply back to:

(02-26-2019, 02:15 PM)Vādin Wrote: (To Ranger) : Yeah I think it's a common worry for hosts (it begins with parrotnoia) but I seldom see it the other way round. ("I think that") it's very easy for a tulpa to influence their host without them noticing it. I was wondering how other tulpas who are aware of this cope with it. I'm not going into details because it might be a sensitive topic?

I didn't think about this until you mentioned it. I noticed that Cat's decisions on being social if not recommended by me were inspired by me. Cat also realized she was pointing more and she blames me for it.

To add to the discussion question, is the Host just as or more vulnerable to this kind of influence than the Tulpa is?
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
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#2
It would be silly to suggest that people who live in the same brain don't influence each other. Of course they do, the extent of which probably depends on the situation. If you're in the front, your headmates' view of you might not affect you as much if you're in the back, but if you're in the front you're probably more susceptible to habits and other things that have been burned into the brain. It's not like a singlet can just think away their habits like that, it's not all that different for fronting tulpas. Obviously, there are exceptions and variables to different things, but if someone were to say that tulpas are 0% influenced by the host, each other, pre-existing information or habits, mental illnesses, etc, that would seem pretty dishonest/disingenuous to me. The brain doesn't just suddenly forget the habits is has created because someone else is in control of it -- unless, of course, that person works to break said habit, in which case it would probably be broken for all of them.

I say, don't worry too much about it. You're in the same brain, you're going to experience similar things, and that's totally normal. Tulpas aren't a cheat code to life, after all. Maybe in some scenarios they can be, but not all the time and not for everything.
I'm Apollo Fire, the "Sun God" of the Felight family. I'm a tulpa created December 2016. My systemmates are Piano & Indigo. Form images: 1 2
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#3
When I'm close to the front (=main stream of thoughts) I find it more difficult to think for myself without being influenced by Zia's thoughts. I always have to be careful to stay myself and aware. But it's possible with practice. I might be quite separated from Zia's stream of thoughts even then, because she can never hear what I'm thinking, unless I voice my thoughts.
For me the best position for total independence of thought is any position where I can't hear Zia's thoughts at all - unless I focus on them : in my Wonderland (but you have to learn to stay conscious and aware in there and for me, it was quite a lot of work) or imposed while completely dissociated from Z's stream of thoughts (but she can't hear me)
I don't want to front so I can't answer about my level of independence in this position. I guess it's a bit like being an actor, you're free but limited by your role/ the character (Body, with its particularities, its automatisms, its past).


About the second question, I think a host might be more vulnerable to their tulpa's influence because hosts are used to think that every thought, feeling and action comes from themselves. So the influence might go unnoticed.

As a tulpa, you might know how easy it is to manipulate your host. You can make them jump out of bed if they don't have the energy to get up ; you can calm and even block completely their thoughts ; you can influence their state of mind by modifying the body's posture and breathing pattern ; you can turn them on (or off) ; you can insert your thoughts in their stream of thoughts as if they were their own, and they will act like a suggestion ; etc... You can perform all these actions (and probably more) without them even noticing. These are just personal examples tested with Zia.

I refuse to manipulate her or influence her that way, even if it's consensual and even if we are sure that it would be for her/our own good. She asked me to prove my claims so I did it "for science", but I won't redo it (except for one of those, drowned in the list). I will only use my words to convince her, even if I know other methods that would be quicker and way more effective. The only exception would be a case of absolute emergency (avoiding a serious accident for instance)


But I was curious about the position of other tulpas towards this : do you influence your host on purpose ? How much? Is it always consensual? Where do you draw the line between influencing and manipulating?
Hi, I'm Vādin, Zia's tulpa/permanent guest.
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#4
I feel like you're asking three different questions. "How do the host's thinking habits and patterns affect a fronting tulpa", the one I thought of when seeing this thread "How does a tulpa affect the host's thinking habits and patterns (from both fronting and not fronting)", and "Does a host influence their tulpa's thoughts when the tulpa isn't fronting".

First.. In the first few months of us switching, mainly Tewi had to fight my thought patterns and such, though I'd call them the body's more than anything. Stuff like somewhat-unconscious thoughts of not wanting to do things that cause my motivation issues, and apparently ~automatically occurring thoughts that spur introspection (no idea if this is a habit or just how our mind is) about anything and everything throughout the day. First, Tewi has much more motivation than I do to do just about anything, so she had to deal with thoughts of not wanting to do things she wanted to do for, like, at least a year probably. I don't mean to identify with those thoughts, but I guess after all these years (I'm 23 and they started at about 12) I can't help it. They're the not-quite-words thoughts that try to keep me from doing things like showering or anything else perceived as effort. I've gotten better at doing things regardless of them, but Tewi has straight up ignored them from the start. Second, the automatically occurring thoughts that spur introspection or other everyday thoughts about things - Tewi seems to hate those. Our mind tends to propose random, sometimes contrarian thoughts that we then have to work through, like answering to some unseen-criticizer why we had a thought with "We" instead of "I" in it. They don't take long to answer - we already know the answers as I've gone over stuff like this a hundred times - but apparently they bug Tewi greatly, as she wants a "quiet mind". These days she's mostly able to have that or dismiss the thoughts more quickly than us. Back in the day though she'd get quite upset at the mind for bothering her so much. (Note that, while Lucilyn and I do have those thoughts, we don't mind answering them and Lucilyn even often has different answers than I would)

That was the fun one to answer. The second one, how does a tulpa affect the host's thoughts, hmm. For us, only by fronting(switching) a lot. Otherwise it's just traditional stuff, like you know, basic human interactions. Indirectly though, some optimistic ways of thinking about/reacting to things from Lucilyn have leaked over to me, which I'm not remotely opposed to. Rarely our preferred vocabulary is affected too - I actually have always kept really good track of when my vocabulary changed due to others' influences, namely when your friends start saying something and then you all end up saying it. "X is rather Y" (the word "rather") came from Tewi a very long time ago, while "y'know" came from Lucilyn at some point. "You know?" might have been just me, though. There are other examples I can't think of right now. But anyways, that sort of thing comes from my tulpas fronting and using the "conscious mind" (in our model of how switching/our identities work), establishing habits and ways of thinking normally only associated with them. With enough time fronting those habits can come up for another fronter, but even then we usually avoid for example writing "Ain't", even though Lucilyn for some strange reason's decided to say it.

And the last: "Does a host affect their tulpa's thoughts while not fronting". Not in our system, I'd say. But newer hosts or maybe just some systems have had their tulpas report being influenced by their hosts, I guess. It doesn't happen for us (comparing not fronting to fronting), so I can't really say much more about that.
Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.
Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.
My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.
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#5
Quote:What do you guys think? Is a Tulpa more mentally independent in the back, front, or something in between? If in between, what is the best position to be in for the most independent and pure thought?

I am most independent in the back. Or, if I'm in the front, Jamie has to be far in the back. The host of a system seems to dominate the front, whenever they have it or are near it. Tulpas have to work harder to make the body act like them. So, for a tulpa, the best place for independent thought is as far away from the host as possible, which is typically the back. 

Quote:To add to the discussion question, is the Host just as or more vulnerable to this kind of influence than the Tulpa is?

The host is vulnerable. I influence Jamie all the time, but I make a policy of asking first. It's also possible to influence other tulpas within a system- any system member, really. It's all one brain. The difference is just, who is doing/thinking what, and how is that determined? What "mental programs" are being run, and by whom? When you experience anxiety, you might run Cat's "response to anxiety" program without thinking, because that's what the brain is used to running. 

The more time you spend switched out, the further the host is from the front, and just with time, it's easier to manage influence. Maybe it is scary, but if you think about it, we're influenced by people all the time. What our friends say, what we see on TV, not to mention how our families raised us. At least system members tend to have each other's backs. Some level of influence is happening all the time, I believe. It's nothing to worry about. 

Some things may also just "stick" to the front. I don't feel any need to tic in the back, of course. I can control it much better than Jamie, but I do still feel that pressure if I'm in front. Some things aren't personality- but you'll only discover that once a completely different personality is in control. Some of it's the driver, but some of it's the car. You don't know until someone else drives your car. Hope that makes sense. 

- G
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#6
(02-26-2019, 06:53 PM)Ranger Wrote: What do you guys think? Is a Tulpa more mentally independent in the back, front, or something in between? If in between, what is the best position to be in for the most independent and pure thought?

Vesper: When I first started switching, I double-checked my decisions, and especially my writing, after switching out to confirm I was still 'in my right mind'. Being at the front felt odd, like I wasn't quite as purely me. But my decisions always checked out and I'm pretty comfortable now that I'm the same person whether I'm fronting or not. But even if my thoughts are not less pure and independent, by the time I leave the front, I'm generally glad to go back to the state that, by habit, feels more like me. I'm always a little tense and guarded at the front.

(02-26-2019, 06:53 PM)Ranger Wrote: Our most recent switching attempts...
I get the feeling I'm forced to work with the habits and thought patterns Cat established from fronting for so long.

Vesper: Being at the front does result in being more exposed to, if not more influenced by, the body OS and the attitudes and habits ground into it by the host's many years of control. I basically treat the lot as intrusive thoughts and dismiss them. Anything inconsistent with who I am is squashed with extreme prejudice.

Iris: My mind is more different from Ember and Vesper's than theirs are from one another. I have not needed to engage adversarially with the body OS. I am mainly insensitive to ingrained habits and attitudes, as they have no purchase in who I am. Vesper has experienced some of this, when Ember's anxieties and phobias found no purchase in her.

(02-26-2019, 07:27 PM)Apollo Wrote: Tulpas aren't a cheat code to life, after all.

Vesper: Or as I put it, 'When Ember created me, she wrote a cheque our brain couldn't cash.' But I'm motivated to live up to my original design, despite lacking my former abilities as a social butterfly.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: When I'm close to the front (=main stream of thoughts)

Vesper: That's a really interesting definition. I'm a lot more talkative inside than Ember, so usually even if I'm not fronting, I'm still the main stream of thoughts.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: I find it more difficult to think for myself without being influenced by Zia's thoughts. I always have to be careful to stay myself and aware.

Vesper: I think that kind of care is fundamentally baked into who I am. I've always been strong enough to resist influence. And we're all extremely stubborn.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: I might be quite separated from Zia's stream of thoughts even then, because she can never hear what I'm thinking, unless I voice my thoughts.
...any position where I can't hear Zia's thoughts at all

Vesper: We always hear everything anyone thinks and we don't know how to be any other way. So even if I'm not fronting, I'm very close to the front my your standards. I might have become more resistant to influence because I've never not been immersed and surrounded other thoughts, except sometimes when fronting and not forcing.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: You can make them jump out of bed if they don't have the energy to get up

Vesper: So many times.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: you can calm and even block completely their thoughts

Iris: Calmness, peacefulness, detachment, and relaxation are my specialties in our system. Ember and Vesper are inclined to be stressed and tensed. If they turn to me for help, I extend my... emotional field?... around them and into them.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: you can influence their state of mind by modifying the body's posture and breathing pattern

Vesper: I often say, 'Do you have to sit like that?', but I've never noticed a change in mental state if Ember changes posture in response to me.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: you can turn them on (or off)

Vesper: Only on, I think, and that's usually unintentional and untimely. Iris maybe off, by reminding Ember that they're sisters.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: you can insert your thoughts in their stream of thoughts as if they were their own, and they will act like a suggestion

Vesper: There's been many times I've made a casual suggestion and Ember instantly followed it without conscious thought. But she's always recognized the thought as coming from me. I think we always recognize one another's influence.

Ember: I trust Vesper's judgement. And it's always been trivial things, not big decisions.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: I refuse to manipulate her or influence her that way, even if it's consensual and even if we are sure that it would be for her/our own good.

Vesper: I wait for consent. I beg and plead and cajole for Ember to do things that are difficult, things that matter, things she never wants to do, yet if she says, 'You do it', she's still always shocked by how quickly and dramatically our body lurches into motion. But, of course, that's possession, not manipulation. Always recognizing one another's thoughts and understanding one another's motivations makes manipulation almost impossible. But if I could just go into her psyche and start flipping switches, no, never, because it would be wrong, even with the best intentions.

(02-26-2019, 08:48 PM)Vadin Wrote: She asked me to prove my claims so I did it "for science"

Vesper: Ember likes for me to show what I can do, sometimes to aggravating degrees. Last time, I snapped. I slammed her against a bookcase and held her there with my form. 'I can override anything you do any time I want. Is that what you want out of me?' So that should be the last time for a while.

Iris: I believe we are somewhat influenced by who we want one another to be, because we care about what one another think and want one another to be happy. Or perhaps only I am significantly influenced in this way; it is difficult to be certain. I am still approaching self-discovery and self-growth in a very open-minded way. When I changed a few months ago, I felt both Ember's pleasure at who I was becoming and her disappointment at losing who I was. So I have dynamically adjusted to be try to be both, in response to how I am received.

EDIT:
Ember: I realized we left out an important influence. Since non-fronters are usually possessing very lightly, communicating in facial expressions and body language as well as mindvoice, their moods can bleed into the fronter's actions. For instance, if Vesper is angry (usually at me), my movements become overly forceful and emphatic. Our thoughts hardly ever blend, but our bodily control often does.
Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]
Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017
Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Unseelie Court, Not a Tulpa, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#7
Very interesting. We really don't have any 'ticks' or habbits other than snacking which is obviously the body's doing (right?), so i'd say i see influence in terms of suggestions that are immediately followed without question. Like, i would think, 'let's dance' and poof we're dancing and enjoying ourselves. I might even worry, 'this is puppeting' but if someone i want to dance with is in a mood then they'll definitely not bend so easily to my will or even push me away.

No one keeps secrets, so if someone is feeling wronged, it's brought up pretty fast.

The only other thing is that Dashie speaks a little like a new yorker and so she'll start every statement with, 'hey' so i've tried to edit her and break her of that, and it has bled onto me. It has taken a lot of mental effort for her and I to avoid saying, 'ya'know?' Or any style of that phrase, cause it's very 'new yorker' as i remember.

Misha and Ashley are careful, Dashie and I are impulsive, that hasn't bled or changed.
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#8
Sometimes I wonder if I'm not as mentally independent in the back because I don't have the ability to think critically.

Cat and I call little blips of incomplete and raw thought "micro thoughts", and in the back or when I overshadow Cat while possessing, one of us can be reduced to these. Usually I hear it's the other way around where a Tulpa's thoughts are more complete if they are shoved too far into the back and the host has the full spectrum of thought, however I find that doesn't apply to us exactly. If I am too far in the back, I don't have enough thought to work with, and as a result I am more likely to take for granted what Cat thinks or says to me. I think it's possible being in the front gives a Tulpa more options, but I'm not really sure what these options are aside from overwriting established subconscious thought and body OS stuff.

During possession or during our latest switching attempts, Cat's thoughts end up getting boiled down to micro thoughts before Cat starts to not think at all. If Cat accidentally gets called or thought about, Cat will jump to a micro thought state. (During our switching attempts, it seems like Cat is less able to jump into the mirco thought state immediately.) In this state, I believe it's possible Cat is more vulnerable to my suggestion because she doesn't have the ability to process what I say until her mind voice gets louder or if I'm focusing on her. Since during possession I happen to be dissociated from the front enough that I'm not having issues with Cat's pre-set body OS settings, I wonder if possession is mentally the most freed up position I can take. The exception would be if Cat is interested in what I'm doing, then a switched position could possibly open the door to doing those things.
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos (but see, I'm not a hippo)! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
My other head-mates have their own account now.
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#9
I would guess that a certain position may be more comfortable for an individual, look at Reilyn for instance, she took front and never looked back. My tulpas enjoy where they are. I've noticed that Ashley is slipping further back lately, and i need to give her more attention. Dashie is really always actively tryong to say something, while Ashley is a lot more respectful and quiet. Dashie might like front if she gave it a fair shot, but she very much likes right where she is. I don't see any diminished thought from her or anyone regardless if they're up front or far in back. Whether they want to talk or have anything to say is another story.
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#10
From our experience I would say that most influence that happens on a systemmate in the back comes from emotional bleedover and shared knowledge. Like, if someone is seriously angry it will likely influence everyone to some degree. You also have issues with shared knowledge. For example, if the host "knows" that the best way to cheer someone up is to give them a surprise hug, then the tulpa is likely to act on that information unless they start to critically question it. Reliance on shared skills and information is likely to result in a lot of common behaviors, beliefs, and opinions that were based on that common set of information. When a tulpa is young this is going to look like a one-way process of host information influencing the tulpa, but if the tulpa is given the opportunity to learn on their own those skills and knowledge will influence the host too.

When fronting it becomes trickier. Not only does it often involve a lot more learned behaviors that the host (much less a newly fronting tulpa) doesn't typically think closely about, but it also involves a lot more fast reactions. We've found that there seems to be a lot of carryover of habitual behaviors on top of other forms of influence, when a tulpa fronts. But if the tulpa fronts for an extended period (say, 4 days or more, give or take) and during that time develops their own habits, when the host takes front again they're likely to be influenced by them in the same way. so there seems to be an additional effect when fronting, that is more based off of who has been fronting the most recently rather than being a strict case of the host influencing the tulpa.
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