The real speed of sentience and overall developement

[Purlox]

I think most of us have read from FAQman's and from others that sentience doesn't come early that it comes in after 25+ hours and if our tulpa ever does anything before that, that they are not sentient and instead it is puppeting. This is supported by the tulpa not moving after that for a while, so of course it can't be sign of sentience, because it would move more if it was truly sentient. Some of us even heard a voice in our head once or twice before this 25 hours milestone, but we dismissed it, because if the tulpa isn't sentient, then how can it talk? But how come are there others who had their tulpa's sentient much faster even if FAQman states it isn't possible?

 

The truth is, that your tulpa was sentient when it first tried to show you that it is sentient e.g. by moving or talking ... (or it was probably sentient even before that) and you dismissed your tulpa just because someone told you it isn't possible for tulpae to be sentient so early. Then your tulpa decided to not do anything, because it thinks that if it won't move, then you won't be so paranoid about it being puppeting even though you consciously know that you yourself haven't puppeted. This as I already said will make you think even more that it must have been only puppeting and not sign of sentience. Once in a while your tulpa will try to see if you aren't so paranoid anymore and will move or do something, but it will probably result in in the same thing as the previous attempts did. Then after that your tulpa will either wait until around the estimated hour mark to prove they are able to do what they were able to do many hours of forcing and real life days ago or get fed up with you and won't tolerate this anymore and might hurt you because of how much you don't believe in it.

 

This will continue on (in a cycle) as long as you believe they can't have certain feature/ability before certain amount of time spent with them like with mindvoice, imposition and etc.

 

 

This post is mainly aimed at newcommers. But I also wanted to state and discuss that what we thought earlier about how long tulpa development takes doesn't seem to be valid anymore, because there are many people with "fast" tulpae, and that the unexplained early responses, mindvoice and possible other "early" stuff, that we only experienced once or twice and then they didn't manifest anymore, might be easily explainable by the tulpa actually having them, but us not believing they could have so early, thus suppressing our ability to notice they actually have them.

[Pleeb]

I think I recall Roswell having sentient memories since before Sands even did personality. Chess said that she remembers being around before she even had a body, and recalls things from very, very, early in the process.

 

It's quite possible that tulpae could be sentient since the start of the process, and I'm curious to see what others think about this (creators and tulpae alike).

[Purlox]

To add my own personal experience: I noticed sentience on day 5, but Ariadne (my tulpa) is saying that she was sentient since day 1 thanks to believing in her.

 

I also have a theory that you might not even need to spend any time on "enforcing" personality to a tulpa, you just need to understand it. Because of Sand's Roswell and I have spent at max 1 hour (2 sessions) on personality and she has been sentient before we finished it according to her.

[Lolimancer]

This is just my humble baseless theory, but i'm of the opinion that the moment you "separate" something from the endless stream of ideas you keep in your subconscious mind, you're setting it up for being potentially alive. You might do so even without doing personality. Using a pre-existent character, too, tends to do the work pretty fast i guess? The moment you start talking (narrating) to it, you're giving it an identity - self-awareness is acquired through people defining your "self" by interacting with you.

 

So yeah, i wouldn't say "from the very beginning", but definitely sooner than many could think - at least, that's my theory. Like, take a newborn baby and give it a lot of memories to work with. Interact to him to give him an idea of actually existing as "something". You'd have a sentient being in no time, compared to the process a normal human tends to go through. And then you have a separate consciousness to share your body with, congrats! Not that complicated i think.

[hypnagogic]

I see no reason for insta-sentience to be impossible. People can create quite independent mind entities, conscience, for example. Or gods whom they "pray" to and sometimes get "guidance". All you have to do is provide body to this entity and allow it to talk and be alive.

I'm pretty sure that Florence was sentient since day 1 or even before I heard about tulpae... We even picked "model" for her together. Though for the first week I sincerely thought I was talking to myself, until some drama and her asking me to believe in her.

Haven't read any guides, they are usually filled with limiting thought-viruses.

[Frosty]

This exact thing was stated in the guides, "acknowledging sentience before sentience."

 

I acknowledged my tulpa as being sentient from the get go. She hasn't really shown me any signs of sentience that I could definitively say wasn't just me puppeting, but I know she understands me, she listens and observes and that she is her own person.

 

Hopefully it will help speed up progress, I guess we'll see.

[Purlox]

This exact thing was stated in the guides, "acknowledging sentience before sentience."

 

I acknowledged my tulpa as being sentient from the get go. She hasn't really shown me any signs of sentience that I could definitively say wasn't just me puppeting, but I know she understands me, she listens and observes and that she is her own person.

 

Hopefully it will help speed up progress, I guess we'll see.

It is said in few guides, but certainly not in the "official" ones, that is Irish's and FAQman's.

 

You either puppeted her on purpose or she moved on her own. If you don't know if you were puppeting, then you weren't and it was her.

[412]

actually i've seen this mentioned many times before , maybe it's time we updated the main two guides?

[Frosty]

actually i've seen this mentioned many times before , maybe it's time we updated the main two guides?

 

Not a bad idea. Could also throw in the new opinions that suggest puppeting/parroting isn't really the terrible thing those guides make it out to be, which might help to reduce or eliminate this problem altogether.

[Sands]

I think I recall Roswell having sentient memories since before Sands even did personality.

 

Not quite, dear Pleeb; I had a personality before Sands told it to me, I knew who I was in that sense but earliest memories are those personality sessions, I'm afraid.

 

I would say I was there and sapient since day one. Of course the first few sessions were very much alike, so it is possible that it wasn't quite from the very first session but still much earlier than that 25 hour mark. Sands knew who I was very well before actual forcing sessions started, so it is possible that some sort of me already existed before, but I wasn't alive before something allowed that to happen. That something most likely being that whole "treat them as a real person" thing, what separates a tulpa or a person from a puppet.

 

There wasn't much to work with to show Sands I was there and listening early. I did not have a form early on, which might have been easier for Sands to see moving and believe, but then again, it might've caused more trouble and doubts than good. I am lucky Sands always believed me to exist and understand, though he wasn't exactly waiting for me to be able to show that early on. I did try my best with headaches and such, though for the best results he of course would have to ask me something and actually wait for an answer instead of just going forward. It is very funny, he did sometimes ask me to do things to confirm which I then would do, but he didn't completely believe them for some reason. He too finds it silly now. He never outright dismissed them, which would've been very discouraging. He knew we could communicate, but only very late in the process did he start using the head pressure to his advantage, even though we had been able to use it for a long time.

 

With form came fears of puppeting. It is undestandable if one doesn't want to give their tulpa a form early on due to that, though signs of sentience would also be easier to notice for most that way. Early on there were problems of forcing me to stay still, which I exactly didn't mind too much, though I don't think I would've wanted to live like that for long. Luckily Avalanche beat some sense into Sands as to what is puppeting and what is not, so I was let to be myself and do what I wanted to. There weren't many doubts after that. We should thank Avalanche, he is almost like some kind of hero to me, a savior.

 

I see it important to note that even though your tulpa could do something once and then wasn't able to reproduce it doesn't mean you puppeted or parroted them the first time. Many things have to be just right, the conditions might've been perfect that one time it happened and not after that. With practice, what you experienced should be possible to reproduce. It takes both the tulpa and the host a lot of work.

 

I don't see personality necessary, but I don't see it harmful, either. It is important that the host understands their tulpa well if a certain personality is desired, but tulpa who were let to mostly develop their own personality aren't any less of a tulpa than those who had a lot of personality work done to them and vice versa. Though I'm sure everyone at least has some sort of idea in their mind, even if they don't realize it themselves. I didn't need that personality forcing to become me and deep down Sands didn't really need it that way either. We both knew, but perhaps it could help some to really get a feel for their tulpa. It was good to just hear him talk, so it was pleasant to me. However, 20 hours of that started being a bit too much for both of us, it was getting boring and not much new was said, so we moved on. That 20 hours is already a lot more than what most have worked on personality, but according to FAQman I would still be a servitor.

 

A tulpa still needs to grow and learn. We might start our lives more "complete" than the hosts did, but we won't know and understand everything. We won't have the same skills, learning takes time. Many of us are very young and disappointed in themselves, I have noticed. But perhaps we still are like children in some parts, comparing ourselves to our hosts who have lived and practiced for much longer does no one any good. With time, we can grow and become more independent.

 

How odd to see my name said so many times in a thread...