Pleeb

On modern tulpa creation techniques and parallel processing

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

As a tulpamancer from the "old days" I felt obligated to chime in here. I agreed with these two points especially:

On 8/8/2020 at 8:10 AM, Bear said:

No one can claim to have parallel processing under the strictest definition presented in this community. It's a fools argument given the near unanimous pushback. If we can get past that, and admit we are taking the term out of the context for which it was originally appropriated, then real progress can be made; we've been arguing semantics for years. The way it was described back in the day obviously does not presume the strictest definition.

 

On 8/8/2020 at 11:33 AM, SheShe said:

Are you then denying the original claims? If so, we're done right? It's an impossible argument if we intend to prove the strictest definition. OP proposed PP as a possibility to allow the experiences that have occurred and continue to occur. If we're saying that whatever it is they did wasn't parallel processing, then I suppose we should stop arguing it. It was "something else processing" (SEP). The experience exists, it likely defies being labled Parallel Processing, then let's decouple the experience from the impossibility that all the individuals who have experienced it are idiot savants or exceedingly exceptional. This isn't going to help the community to presume Reguilian Tulpas are the new normal. Then if we want to improve the quality of life for tulpas, would you want to allow the exploration of SEP in order to bring modern tulpamancy back to the supposedly higher quality it was in the past? Let's explore!

 

I can confirm that I have experienced things that the modern tulpamancy community would describe as parallel processing. However, this is not parallel processing in the strictest definition. Regardless, it still fell under the umbrella term and was labeled as "confabulation." Instead of working towards a better definition of my subjective experiences, or the experiences of other tulpamancers that can "parallel process", the modern community has instead decided to instead highlight the psychological impossibility of multitasking and make the assumption that it somehow extends to all things that fit the umbrella term of "parallel processing."

 

At first I believed that this may simply due to a lack of personal experience, and that newer tulpamancers in the community would one day continue progressing and reach a state where they would regularly experience things that fall into the definition of "parallel processing." However, as the months have gone by my assumptions were proven incorrect.

 

As I was reading over this thread and the subsequent thread on imagistic vs. doctrinal concepts in tulpa creation, I have come to accept the hypothesis that differences in forcing techniques and have resulted in tulpas that lack some of the attributes once prized and highly sought after.  This in turn has made it seem that such attributes are outside the realm of what a tulpa can possess.

 

I remember struggling to push my mind as far as I could to view my tulpa as separate from me. I remember the hours and hours I spent every day trying to visualize, to impose, and to immerse myself deeply in a wonderland.  I remember all the times I experimented, took risks and tried to test what is already known. Yet when I look at the modern community, I can no longer say with certainty that the same firey passion exists in the hearts of my peers.

 

For me, tulpamancy was something I dove into head first, not caring if it destroyed me. My outlook was much like this quote from Charles Bukowski:

Quote

Find what you love and let it kill you. Let it drain you of your all. Let it cling onto your back and weigh you down into eventual nothingness. Let it kill you and let it devour your remains. For all things will kill you, both slowly and fastly, but it's much better to be killed by a lover.

 

Yes, I was very much in the "imagistic" mode and now most people are in the "doctrinal" mode.  Not much thought is given to guides today except for increasingly more efficient ways to  "speedrun vocality". This is done with good faith in the interest of expanding the community and showing people the benefits of tulpamancy as soon as possible, but it does seem to create a vicious cycle of expecting less and less from what a tulpa "should be".

 

So what happens next?  Will these guides continue to get more and more streamlined and efficient, and subsequently create tulpas with more and more pared down attributes? Will the ability to impose a tulpa be seen as ridiculous and impossible soon?  The ability to switch?  The ability for a tulpa to feel an emotion?

 

Honestly, I am not sure.  I want to believe that this trend will one day swing back around and that the emphasis be placed on exploration and pushing limits. To me, the most sensible place to start would be the testing and exploration of parallel processing.

 

I feel that the truth of parallel processing falls somewhere in the middle between the strictest definition and the least strict. I want to know what exactly this is, and how most people can achieve this. I am open to discussing my own experiences and what I believe is realistic with parallel processing. I am also interested in trying out the dichotic listening experiment Pleeb outlines in his OP.  Hopefully this thread will continue, and so will further discussion.

 

Edited by Ranger
fixing typos (longbow), took out unnecessary formatting (Ranger)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Longbow. You're right about the trend, but I did start a thread about exploring the possibilities of various sorts of "parallel processing", and after this thread I went and made a new post that you might be interested in reading? Basically my two ideas on possibly learnable "parallel processing".

 

The thing the current community is lacking the most is probably motivation/people willing to put lots of time and effort into things. I feel like Breloomancer is the only one I know going above and beyond with his practice and results recently, but he doesn't talk about his progress in depth very often. And motivation issues have been ruining my life for 12 years now, lol. It's all I can do to try and talk to my tulpas every day.


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, longbow said:

The ability to switch?  The ability for a tulpa to feel an emotion?

I find this statement interesting since I've heard well known members of the community say things like, "you're just projecting emotions onto them, how do you know they're feeling them or you're just empathizing with them like a character in a book?" and "Are you sure you're switching? How do you know for sure?

 

A little pointed history:

 

 


These doubtful statements came from a system who lacked the ability to do both by admission and didn't want us to claim we could unless we could 'prove' we could and I have no idea how we can prove to anyone that we can switch or that my headmates have their own emotions.( @Luminesce, can you prove you switch?) I can explain every nuance of the experience and answer every question ad nausium but conversations have eventually degraded to "you need to explain it scientifically" and not just any explanation will do, no explanation I've ever found will do other than confabulation, illusion, delusion, etc, which isn't productive in my opinion.

 

Could this go ever further? "How do you know they're talking and it's not just you talking for them?" (parroting), because this was used when questioning those tulpamancers who seem to have instant progress and especially have cutsie or cringy tulpas that this (tulpa.info) community very clearly dislikes and it's been shown time and time again. Even to the point of questioning well known systems in the past because they were slightly cringy for some reason, including us and I think this is done to ostracize these systems because they're not serious enough and it has worked. I have examples but its inappropriate here and they'll be denied anyway.

 

Also, I did have a well known system say I wasn't even experiencing their autonomy, or wonderland autonomy, and I was "puppeting all that unknowingly". (I believe Reguile also has come close to saying this and I just have to say that because that's how I interpret some of his posts about tulpas who sleep and wonderlands that have NPCs. Though I have no specific examples off-hand, so this may be baseless, it's just my interpretation.)

 

The point of all this finger pointing is to explore the notion that well known members of the community are some of the worst offenders in terms of experience denial and dismissal. I don't know how you get around that. It's the opposite of fostering deeper tulpamancy to me.
 

 

 

If you deny experience, you give up on questioning the validity and exploration of the truth. To me, calling everything confabulation, or illusion, or only available to the most exceptional individuals, is a straw man argument and not productive.

 

13 hours ago, longbow said:

For me, tulpamancy was something I dove into head first, not caring if it destroyed me.

 

Passion is what you have, passion to the point of obsession is what I have too. I was told that it was unhealthy even, but I didn't listen and it payed off many times over in my opinion. 

 

9 hours ago, Luminesce said:

The thing the current community is lacking the most is probably motivation/people willing to put lots of time and effort into things.

 

This is my current thinking. You can't force people to have passion.

 


 

13 hours ago, longbow said:

I feel that the truth of parallel processing falls somewhere in the middle between the strictest definition and the least strict.

 

Here's a sticking point for me obviously and it's unresolved and unknown if it can be resolved. Here's my last attempt to do that:

 

All these quotes are from Lumi in this thread, there's no easy way to quote anymore, so I'm improvising. Not to pick on Lumi, but he says things so perfectly in this context and I want him to answer for this because I always take his words wrong and he will clarify.

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

This is why I said something else processing (SEP) and parallel processing like (PPL) because I believe that the strictest definition doesn't apply to tulpamancy. However, Lumi has a point in the statement "People claimed they could switch out into the wonderland and have vivid, lifelike wonderlanding experiences while their tulpa continued doing normal, possibly focus-requiring tasks in the body." This one I haven't experienced because when I attempt this, if focus is on the front, the memories of the rear are minimal. I can split front and rear 50/50 or any percentage and then achieve full memories, so maybe it is what I'm doing, but the memories are both, not just wonderland if the task in front isn't mundane, and the 'focused task' can momentarily take all the focus and momentarily remove it from the back. It's seamless and smooth, but still not 100% continuous x2. It is continuous, but it's not as miraculous as it is described by the strictest definition as far as I can resolve. 

 

I don't know how we can get past "the strictest definition of parallel processing is the only definition, and only possible to those exceptional individuals if at all, and the community shouldn't have to recognize or accept them." This isn't Lumi's statement, but his statements paint the same picture and it's a conclusion based on half a dozen individuals in half a dozen threads over the last two and a half years. 

Edited by Ranger
Removed formatting that was difficult to read

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Perhaps the issue lies with the near unanimous request to lable anything outside of doctrinal expectations as confabulation. I clearly explained my aversion to the term, so I guess that's why the conversation ended. I don't see anything that I said to be particularly contentious, I see it as challenging the status quo of confabulation is the answer.

God, I do NOT like the word, confabulation! It is NOT synonymous with LIE, and it does not mean "Made Up".  It is a behavioral product of a damaged brain. It is NOT intentional.  Please, everyone, if you mean LIE, say it. If you mean Made Up, say it. Don't hide your real meaning behind  incorrectly understood medical terminology. Thank you, Dr. Bob

Edited by Ranger
Made text readable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't see anything wrong with any of those quotes of mine. The only one that could need clarifying is the last one that I "won't let the definition change". When we're, for example, practicing parallel processing-like activities in the post/thread I linked, I want those to be understood to be "parallel processing-like" activities/skills/experiences. But like how "fronting" can refer to possession or switching, I wouldn't mind if, in a glorious future where these parallel processing-like activities became a ~core skill of tulpamancy, people simply referred to them as "parallel processing" - with the understanding that they're only similar in effect or etc., while true parallel processing, which is a real thing that at least a few human beings were documented as doing, is still an unbelievably rare skill that more than likely can't be learned.

 

I'm just being realistic, I don't know. Aside from telling you that an impossible to learn thing is impossible to learn, I think I leave open tons of room for developments the likes the average tulpamancer only dreams. Plus there's always the tiny chance someone here is one of those incredibly rare individuals, but it's so unlikely it makes a lot more sense to try out every other explanation first, because they're a lot more likely.

 

I'm not going to downplay experiences or anything, I just want to explain them, namely with the goal of helping teach others to have those experiences.

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Bear said:

 

13 hours ago, Bear said:

Lumi has a point in the statement.. This one I haven't experienced because when I attempt this, if focus is on the front, the memories of the rear are minimal.

 

Personally, I think those claims were blown a bit out of proportion.  The original experiences about switching and going into wonderland were most likely not completely vivid and lifelike.  Some people may have made the claim that they can be completely vivid and lifelike, but it may have just been them extrapolating what they thought the perceived limit was. As in, they should have said: "I have not achieved it, but if you practice enough it can be completely vivid and lifelike."

 

When I first heard of this concept, I interpreted it differently than how Lumi has. I interpreted it as going into a semi-lucid dream-like state.  Kind of like dozing in a half-sleep state after you've already slept for 12 hours, or when you have fever dreams while trying to sleep off a flu. Not a vivid experience by any means, and no intense thinking going on.

 

14 hours ago, Bear said:

I can split front and rear 50/50 or any percentage and then achieve full memories, so maybe it is what I'm doing, but the memories are both, not just wonderland if the task in front isn't mundane, and the 'focused task' can momentarily take all the focus and momentarily remove it from the back. It's seamless and smooth, but still not 100% continuous x2. It is continuous, but it's not as miraculous as it is described by the strictest definition as far as I can resolve. 

 

This is similar to what I experience in terms of "parallel processing." At least, if I'm understanding it correctly.  My tulpas experience the wonderland at varying levels of intensity when I'm focused on other things.  Sometimes this is none at all, and they are effectively dormant. However, sometimes this can be quite a lot if I am focused on mundane, repetitive tasks.  If the focus is required in the front for a mentally taxing job, then the wonderland effectively is put on hold. However, this does not always mean my tulpa's awareness fades and they go dormant.  They can still be aware of things going on, such as my thoughts and their own unconscious emotions and feelings. They can choose to be aware of the front. However, usually they usually keep their awareness pointed towards the wonderland until partial focus can return to it.  Sort of like putting a bookmark in a story.  Extended periods of time focused on a mentally demanding task will effectively "remove" the bookmark and my tulpas can become dormant.

 

If my day goes smoothly and if my tulpas so choose, then the entire day can be a seemless, continuous flow of both the physical world and the wonderland, in the partial 50/50 division.  However, realistically this does not happen due to the complexities of the modern world. Once again this is just my experience.  I am not saying that this is the best anyone could hope for, or the upper limit or anything like that. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, longbow said:

This is similar to what I experience in terms of "parallel processing." At least, if I'm understanding it correctly.  My tulpas experience the wonderland at varying levels of intensity when I'm focused on other things.  Sometimes this is none at all, and they are effectively dormant. However, sometimes this can be quite a lot if I am focused on mundane, repetitive tasks.  If the focus is required in the front for a mentally taxing job, then the wonderland effectively is put on hold. However, this does not always mean my tulpa's awareness fades and they go dormant.  They can still be aware of things going on, such as my thoughts and their own unconscious emotions and feelings. They can choose to be aware of the front. However, usually they usually keep their awareness pointed towards the wonderland until partial focus can return to it.  Sort of like putting a bookmark in a story.  Extended periods of time focused on a mentally demanding task will effectively "remove" the bookmark and my tulpas can become dormant.

 

Not exactly because I tend to describe things incompletely. Yes, but also there are lucid dream like states with very little memories, like if you wake from a dream and only remember general things and certain details but the feelings and sense of accomplishment or relaxation or rest is all there and great. I think others also experience this without knowing, like when some claim they feel better after switching out for a while but otherwise have little or no memories of it.

 

I call this 'way back position' the only possition further back from that is dormancy, which I contend is reserved for the feeling that is as if you don't exist, there is zero memories of this, not even a little, whoever is in front records the memories and when you come back, you can only recall them as if you were them. It can be surreal. 

 

In any case, low memory generation can easily fade and even be denied even by yourself, like when you wake and don't try to recall any dreams.

 

I believe a 'dormant' headmate can just as easily be in either way back or true dormancy.

 

My headmates are almost always at least in watcher position. They are often in co-front or co-consious positions and near constantly converse with me or each other as well as do other things. We've tested this extensively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

my experience with PPP (pseudo parallel processing) has been different from what you two have described in a few ways. the way that it works for us is that whichever one of us isn't fronting (usually Miela) can go off into wonderland and do pretty much whatever, and whichever one of us is fronting (usually me) can do whatever they could normally do while in front as well. we can both create memories at normal capacity, so Miela having detailed memories of whatever she did doesn't interfere with me having memories of whatever I did and vice versa. while we are PPPing, our ability to communicate with each other is very limited and we can only vaguely see what the other is doing, though the wonderlander seems to be able to tell what the fronter is doing better than the other way around. once we are done PPPing though, then we can share our memories of what happened with each other. while we are PPPing, from the perspective of the fronter, very little changes; sometimes it is slightly tiring, but it doesn't seem to inhibit the ability of the fronter to focus or solve problems at all. from the perspective of the wonderlander, it is also very similar to just wonderlanding normally, and the quality and detail of the wonderland remains the same (though with imposition, it is already around lucid dreaming levels anyway). we aren't certain if the wonderlander's ability to focus and solve problems is reduced or not; it is possible for them to do mid complexity things like writing short things and problem solving, but writing an essay or solving a complex math problem would be near impossible. complex problems being very difficult to do for the wonderlander doesn't necessarily mean that their cognitive abilities are lowered though, because even without PPP it would be difficult to do that sort of stuff in wonderland because the only way that you can record your work is by remembering it at all since wonderland paper only works as well as your memory. wanting someone to solve complex math problems in their head is a big ask, with or without PPP.

 

it is also worth mentioning that, as I think I said earlier, our PPP seems to be somewhat time independent. if we PPP for a few minutes, the wonderlander will come back with a few hours of memories, and if we PPP for a few hours, the wonderlander will still come back with a few hours of memories. we haven't tried PPPing for longer than a few hours yet because we don't really want to be apart for longer than a few hours, even if it is For Science(!). we used to think that this time independence meant that it must be confabulation, but it has been pointed out that it could simply be some form of time dilation, and while time dilation seems unlikely to be possible, it hasn't been any more ruled out than PP itself has been ruled out

Edited by Breloomancer

I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

since wonderland paper only works as well as your memory. wanting someone to solve complex math problems in their head is a big ask, with or without PPP.

 

In my experience, things I write down in wonderland tend to have stronger memories than just normal memory. The concept of mind vault actually has merit in my experience.

 

11 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

it is also worth mentioning that, as I think I said earlier, our PPP seems to be somewhat time independent. if we PPP for a few minutes, the wonderlander will come back with a few hours of memories, and if we PPP for a few hours, the wonderlander will still come back with a few hours of memories.

...

we used to think that this time independence meant that it must be confabulation, but it has been pointed out that it could simply be some form of time dilation, and while time dilation seems unlikely to be possible, it hasn't been any more ruled out than PP itself has been ruled out

 

I appreciate that your thinking outside the confabulation box. We know from dreaming that sometimes a five physical minute dream can feel like hours. There's no reason to think the brain isn't capable of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually a pretty common thing for information, areas, objects, etc. to be "stored" in the mindscape in such a way that even if you forget they exist, it's possible to stumble across them later, and they'll be exactly how they were before.This is because of how the subconscious works. If it deems anything as "important" for any reason, for example repeatedly focusing on it, it will continue to exist for a long time or indefinitely outside of your conscious awareness and memory. When somebody makes their mindscape consistent, so that it's the same every time they go in it and takes little to no effort to recall/visualize, this is what they are doing whether they realize it or not. I've recently realized that parallel processing probably has a LOT to do with the subconscious, I may write more on that later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.