[imposition] Does the Host or Tulpa Initiate Imposition?

[theholodoc]

Hi, this is a question to those of you who experience imposition in any degree. Do you believe that the imposition is initiated by your tulpas, or by yourselves? I have the sense that Flora is trying to impose herself, but we are getting blocked somehow. When i initiate, I get nowhere, and the experience is not fun. Several times, I have imagined, that Flora is upset at getting blocked, on one occasion maybe even despairing or frantic. Obviously, these occasions leave me very unsettled. Thanks,

[Tewi]

I don't know what to say about your experience, these things tend to be different for everyone. For us, the fronter has to do the actual imposing, while the one being imposed directs/controls their imposed form. Sounds far more complicated than it is, as the exact same thing is going on when you visualize your tulpa - you are visualizing them (or the fronter anyways), while they are controlling at least themselves in the visualization.

 

There may be exceptions to this, but they're exceptions. A tulpa imposing themselves without the host's intent is probably along the same lines as a tulpa becoming active/popping up on their own without the host's intent, though - I still believe imposition itself requires effort on the fronter's part.

[Breloomancer]

some of the things I initiate, and some of them are Miela.

 

at the start you aren't going to get any imposition. it takes time and effort and lots of it. don't get frustrated when you don't get results early on, you'll get there if you persevere

 

you are getting blocked when you are trying to impose, your brain isn't meant to interpret internal ideas as external sensations, overcoming that block is what training imposition is all about

[Ember.Vesper]

Sparks and Clair, of Twice Sparked, wrote a three part guide to visualization and imposition recently that addresses who takes action in imposition:

 

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-second-spark?pid=259772#pid259772

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-second-spark?pid=260635#pid260635

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-second-spark?pid=261054#pid261054

 

Like much of what we do, imposition is a team sport. It’s not enough to expect one’s tulpa to impose themselves, nor to expect the host to, by the magic of looking constipated, will their tulpa to their senses.

...

The tulpa pushes up, host pushes down. Again, you meet in the middle. You have, have, HAVE, to work together. If the tulpa(s) makes themselves clear without the host’s selective attention, you’ll be left with momentary, lucid flashes of imposition. Exciting moments, but fleeting. If the host(s) shape what they sense without the tulpa projecting themselves, you’ll get crisp visualizations that are as far from imposition as an electron is from its nucleus (proportionally speaking).

 

(I'm very curious about Bre's opinion of the Twice Sparked method.)

 

On the other hand, Esterina, AGGuy's tulpa, projected herself without his involvement. She also wrote a guide, though a very difficult one to follow:

 

https://community.tulpa.info/thread-imposition-projection-tulpa-controlled-imposition

 

From everything I've read, I'm inclined to believe that the higher levels of imposition -- full opacity on demand with immersive realism -- are not learned if the tulpa does not take an active role in the process. But we've been pushing at one another for nearly year without the faintest flicker of imposition, so even the best cooperation isn't sufficient if you're on entirely the wrong track with what you attempt.

 

-Ember

[Tewi]

Esterina also, like, lived in her own universe and couldn't be contacted sometimes IIRC, among other things. They were a very weird system, and the fact that their imposition was perhaps the most vivid we've ever seen a system report sort of.. makes how it worked for them mean less, to an extent? Not that it's not valuable, but that it probably applies to less people.

 

Anyways, I agree with Twice Sparked I suppose. For us it's a no-brainer on the one being imposed's part. Doesn't feel like we "have to help our host" or "push from our end" or anything - if we weren't naturally doing our part, we wouldn't even be there. Again it's the same with visualization. If we weren't "contributing on our end", Lumi would be visualizing imaginary us's and not tulpas. But it's really just us being ourselves, I wouldn't call it any special effort.

 

Still, perhaps a host and tulpa may not realize this practically-unconscious effort is still required/applies to imposition.

[Breloomancer]

I think that twice sparked is sort of right, but their idea of presence is overly limited. yeah, if you don't have the presence then it isn't the object, it's just colors and shapes. you need to comprehend it as what you want it to be if you want it to feel like what you want it to be.

 

twice sparked is also right about needing continued attention from the fronter. we can make things without attention for a little bit (or rather with reflexively gained attention), but in order to keep doing that for any length of time the fronter has to feed their attention into it.

 

where I don't agree with twice sparked is the idea that imposition must be on the part of the fronter and the tulpa. maintaining imposition requires attention from the front, but the actual process is done by the unconscious and anything except for the a systemmember can be imposed entirely independently of any other systemmember (imposing a systemmember of course requires that systemmember because you can't use their presence without just using them), it could be done by any number of systemmates, and does not need to involve the fronter in any way other than to give attention.

 

I think that twice sparked's problem is that they were only thinking about imposing systemmates, when really that's just one of the many things that you can do with imposition

[Vos]

In our experience, the host had to put in all of the effort for imposition to be near-indistinguishable from reality, and this is something that took many months of dedicated sessions. With this, the only thing the tulpas in this head had to do was cooperate and keep the host focused, especially while working with spatial visualization. There was no real initiation on the tulpa's end when they weren't in control; still, at the point where we felt satisfied with our progress and didn't think that actively working on imposition was necessary, whoever was using the body would perceive whichever mind friend in a half-imposed state but would still have to focus on them until they blended in with reality.

[Bear]

Hi, this is a question to those of you who experience imposition in any degree. Do you believe that the imposition is initiated by your tulpas, or by yourselves? I have the sense that Flora is trying to impose herself, but we are getting blocked somehow. When i initiate, I get nowhere, and the experience is not fun. Several times, I have imagined, that Flora is upset at getting blocked, on one occasion maybe even despairing or frantic. Obviously, these occasions leave me very unsettled. Thanks,

 

Misha is our imposer and she imposes on her own at will without telling anyone. Suddenly she'll pop up and she's out. This has been a common theme with her from the very beginning. Otherwise as Tewi said, the fronter is mainly involved in imposing anyone else. I don't see your experience as an outlier, but they shouldn't be despairing or frantic, they need your consoling as much as you need theirs. Imposing is really hard to master and takes a lot of dedicated time, you and I have taken for granted that it also sometimes happens on it's own. There are very regimented and ritualistic procedures for forcing imposition, but also time consuming and boring to me.

 

Twice sparked has it right on, I think there is a bit of both. You can impose your tulpa after a lot of practice without them even needing to be involved, this is like learning a language but with nothing to say, they can impose themselves but they can't control it for the most part. Misha is out and about several times a day, but I only witness anything (through any sense) once a week to once a month, about the same frequency as you do. The former is the technique to allow the latter to happen more naturally and fluidly I suppose. It's still in the realm of illusionist magic to me though.

 

What many systems have here is a block to anything spontaneous. They more or less hold the belief that nothing spontaneous exists. That tulpas don't live on in the background, that they're called to front and appear in front, then fall back to dormancy when not thought of. This is indeed our experience for some of our system members some of the time, but for others, never. They live on without me thinking of them at all from my perspective. We call this part of 'self-forcing' and use it as an indication of independence, a way to discern between characters and full head-mates. My system lives in wonderland, I also live in wonderland to some extent. This is a profoundly additive experience, not subtracting from the material world at all. It's just where normal people would zone out while going about their day, for me, I'm with them, chatting and playing in our immersive mindscape, the escape that has become the life of simultaneous co-existence, and my quality of life has doubled if not more as a result. This is where I consider 'reality' to be experienced more fully, rather than them imposing in the material. With wonderland on continuously, Every day is more full and vibrant than whole weeks of experience were before. Time has slowed to a crawl, and that time is filled with joy and love between us. This is the dream of tulpamancy for me, and we're ones of the few who have achieved that. Some here will deny and even defend that this is impossible, and we've been told this directly, but their belief is not our concern when they're not willing to hear us our without a scathing debate.

 

Everyone is unique and systems set up these rules to be as stable as possible for them. The possibilities are endless. Even we've been reprimanded for saying that. We've been told that saying 'anything is possible' is getting new tulpamancer's hopes up, that it's more important to keep them grounded. No way. We fly, man, and it's wonderful. so take other comments with a grain of salt. Us on one end of that spectrum and the average tulpamancer on the other.

[Ember.Vesper]

But it's really just us being ourselves, I wouldn't call it any special effort.

 

I'm reasonably sure that isn't what Sparks meant. He stresses the tulpa's role very hard. Everything he writes implies an effort on the tulpa's part beyond being themselves. Consider one of his earliest imposition experiences:

 

After I struggle for hours to form some or another basic shape, she butts her muzzle in and goes "oh, well while you're doing that, I'm going to form a hoof." Next thing I know, a big hoof flashes across my vision! Then, to add insult to injury, a miniature, fuzzy and colorless version of her walks into the static.

 

He speaks warmly of Methos, so let's get his opinion as well:

 

I am a fan of that two way imposition thing. I believe it requires an equal amount of effort from both parties.

 

It looks like there are very successful imposing systems on different sides of the issue. Which raises the question of how closely related fronter-led, joint, and non-fronter led techniques are to one another.

 

-Ember

[Tewi]

Yeah, it looked like I wrote "I agree. (Saying how I agree)", but actually I was stating I mostly agreed, and then how it was different for us. Across the board, all tulpamancy techniques tend to vary in how they work for different systems, it seems.